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The sad story of Heisenberg's doctoral oral exam (1998)

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Re: The sad story of Heisenberg's doctoral oral exam (1998)

#71
post #53

Reminds me of who were on Fourier’s doctoral defense committee: Lagrange, Laplace, and Legendre, who all have a “list of things named after” page on Wikipedia. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_things_named_after_Jos... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_things_named_after_Pie... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_things_named_after_Adr...

And Fourier continued in that tradition: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_things_named_after_Jos...

Re: The sad story of Heisenberg's doctoral oral exam (1998)

#72

Having just finished the epic Making of the Atomic Bomb by Richard Rhodes, my mind goes to a different place —- Heisenberg was at the core of the German bomb project. Speculatively, I wonder how things might have gone a different way had he been required to be a brilliant experimentalist too. Success versus failure hinged on nitty-gritty experimental details, not on sweeping theoretical insight. Probably not, but the…

I don't know. Having the theoretical and experimental physics talent was a necessary condition for producing the atomic bomb, but was not sufficient. What was lacking was a government willing and able to commit to a crash program building the novel industrial base for isotope separation, radiochemical separation, and all the other things detailed in Rhodes' (and others books).

Re: The sad story of Heisenberg's doctoral oral exam (1998)

#73

Having just finished the epic Making of the Atomic Bomb by Richard Rhodes, my mind goes to a different place —- Heisenberg was at the core of the German bomb project. Speculatively, I wonder how things might have gone a different way had he been required to be a brilliant experimentalist too. Success versus failure hinged on nitty-gritty experimental details, not on sweeping theoretical insight. Probably not, but the…

I don't know. Having the theoretical and experimental physics talent was a necessary condition for producing the atomic bomb, but was not sufficient. What was lacking was a government willing and able to commit to a crash program building the novel industrial base for isotope separation, radiochemical separation, and all the other things detailed in Rhodes' (and others books).

Agreed that this is low probability. But it did strike me that the Nazi brass were most interested in such a crash program, at one point declaring that it should be given top priority. What dissuaded them were the apparent failures of early efforts and lack of confidence of the scientists themselves — the scientists got hung up on use of heavy water as a neutron moderator, among other suboptimal practical decisions.

Re: The sad story of Heisenberg's doctoral oral exam (1998)

#74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hes correct. It should be "verbal exam".

In fact, though, it's "oral exam." But it does sound funny.

language, in fact, evolves. a rectal exam involves examining the examining the rectal cavity, so a oral exam should be reserved for examining the oral cavity.

Re: The sad story of Heisenberg's doctoral oral exam (1998)

#75
post #4

TIL that a brilliant physicist nearly failed his physics exam (sort of). What is revealing is the broad-based knowledge that was expected of any student of those times. Unlike the super-specialities of today. A career in such fields (rather in any field) in those days required total dedication to academics. Also the importance of oral arguments and oral debate.

There are plenty of petty turds in academia today who do similar things, ruining the careers and significantly negatively impacting the lives of students. When they decide that they do not like a student (for _any_ reason), they have unchecked means to make that student's life miserable, make them jump through extra hoops, get them removed from the program, psychologically torment them, etc.

100% accurate!

Re: The sad story of Heisenberg's doctoral oral exam (1998)

#76

>>> he still had difficulty with it! And again, when Bohr pointed out the error, it led to emotional difficulties for Heisenberg. This resonates with me deeply - knowledge that I "should" have known but are shamed for not knowing become massively harder to learn. I think I somehow label that area as "not part of my identity" and so if I need to learn it Indont have an intellectual challenge I have to resolve past tra…

> We need to be kinder to ourselves.

Everyone else needs to be kinder to themselves. I, on the other hand, am a worthless piece of shit who deserves no kindness.

Resolving that obvious hypocrisy would require me to accept that I'm "not special"; see, singling myself out as the sole human being who deserves to hate themselves keeps me in a special category. You already mentioned the real problem:

> identity

Yup, there it is. "Part of my identity" and "not part of my identity" are stupid and useless characterizations that we all, me included, cling to desperately. It's extremely freeing to give up parts of your own identity. I try, but it's hard. It feels like death ... but then if it works, it feels like a rebirth. Hating myself is one of the hardest parts of my identity to give up. I'm not sure I'll ever be able to.

But let's all agree to ruthlessly murder those awful "I'm just not good at math" parts of our identities, and help everyone else murder their own. It's such an easy virus to catch, and so damaging.

Re: The sad story of Heisenberg's doctoral oral exam (1998)

#77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In fact, though, it's "oral exam." But it does sound funny.

language, in fact, evolves. a rectal exam involves examining the examining the rectal cavity, so a oral exam should be reserved for examining the oral cavity.

I agree in general, but disagree on the details. In an oral exam, a student answers questions orally. That's how language has evolved so far. I can't imagine a situation where a committee of professors would need to examine a granduate student's rectum to evaluate knowledge, so the "rectal exam" above is poorly named. To further advance linguistic evolution, "rectal exam" should be reserved for occasions when the student is required to pronounce words rectally in response to questions in his or her field of study.

That happens more often than you might think, plus it makes everything consistent.

Re: The sad story of Heisenberg's doctoral oral exam (1998)

#78
> The result was that Heisenberg received the lowest of three passing grades in physics and the same overall grade (cum laude) for his doctorate

I don't think that's accurate - there are usually 4 passing grades for dissertations in Germany, the lowest passing grade being "rite". It would be surprising if "cum laude", which literally means "with praise", was the lowest passing grade at Heisenberg's university (edit: Wikipedia confirms 4 passing grades for Heisenberg's dissertation: "summa cum laude", "magna cum laude", "cum laude", and "passed" [0]).

The standard grades for dissertations in Germany are "summa cum laude" (=very good with distinction), "magna cum laude" (=very good), "cum laude" (=good), "rite" (=sufficient), and "insuffizienter" (=failed). Some faculties have "satis bene" as an additional grade between "cum laude" and "rite".

[0] https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Werner_Heisenberg#cite_note-2

Re: The sad story of Heisenberg's doctoral oral exam (1998)

#79

Having just finished the epic Making of the Atomic Bomb by Richard Rhodes, my mind goes to a different place —- Heisenberg was at the core of the German bomb project. Speculatively, I wonder how things might have gone a different way had he been required to be a brilliant experimentalist too. Success versus failure hinged on nitty-gritty experimental details, not on sweeping theoretical insight. Probably not, but the…

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Re: The sad story of Heisenberg's doctoral oral exam (1998)

#80

I use to frequent a grad student bar that regularly held an open-mic night for people to practice their defense. It was brutal. A room full of drunk grad and post-grads would try and pick apart your presentation. Targeted academic heckling. It was great. The goal was to get over your fear of the whole process -no matter what, your actual defense would be a better experience.

Many departments have some kind of "informal lunch talks" for and by grad students, particularly in the summer. People often practice their defenses there. The advantage is everyone is in your field so the grilling can be pretty close to what professors will focus on.
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