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The sad story of Heisenberg's doctoral oral exam (1998)

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Re: The sad story of Heisenberg's doctoral oral exam (1998)

#41
post #4

TIL that a brilliant physicist nearly failed his physics exam (sort of). What is revealing is the broad-based knowledge that was expected of any student of those times. Unlike the super-specialities of today. A career in such fields (rather in any field) in those days required total dedication to academics. Also the importance of oral arguments and oral debate.

> Unlike the super-specialities of today.

Many programs still administer pretty general qualifying exams.

Mine was about two-thirds systems neuroscience (close to my thesis topic), with some reinforcement learning (in the Sutton and Barto sense) and genetics of autism on the side. You were strongly encourage to pick at least one topic that would be "mind-expanding" rather than just thesis prep work. My spouse's department instead had a thesis/anti-thesis structure. They wrote two proposals, the real one that they intended to carry out and a second one on a totally different topic. They then defended both.

Both were written + oral exams. I found the oral part helpful (fun, even) because the conversation keeps the candidate and reviewer from getting hung up on minor points, while probing how they think. Plus, I think there's a bit of tradition in making the candidate sweat by seeing how far you can ratchet up the difficulty.

What I am surprised about is the "practical" component. I've never heard of a hands-on exam!

Re: The sad story of Heisenberg's doctoral oral exam (1998)

#42
post #35

Interestingly, this type of entrenchment has not changed in my opinion. There is always a professor of distinguished, but long forgotten and superseded past-expertise on the orals. They will insist on nuanced competence in an area no longer necessary to forge ahead. They become petty and claw with every breath to maintain relevance, despite all the others on the panel fully aware of the opposite. Academia is a cesspo…

> There is always a professor of distinguished, but long forgotten and superseded past-expertise on the orals. Wait, are you claiming that knowledge of experimental physics is "long forgotten and superseded"? As a mathematician, I'm all for recognising the importance of theoretical physics, and think that there's no reason a good theoretical physicist has also to be a good experimental physicist—but I wouldn't go so…

I think I did not make myself clear.

When I read the article, I gathered that there was a necessity for expert in A to make orals in B because their style of presentation. To achieve acceptance at B, there were non-relevant to A requirements.

Did I misunderstood?

Re: The sad story of Heisenberg's doctoral oral exam (1998)

#43

Let's have some fun. Here's a basic special relativity problem from John R. Taylor's Classical Mechanics . A space explorer A sets off at a steady 0.95 c to a distant star. After exploring the star for a short time, he returns at the same speed and gets home after a total absence of 80 years (as measured by earth-bound observers.) How long do A's clocks say that he was gone, and by how much has he aged as compared to…

Hint: thinking about what happens when the acceleration changes makes this problem more straightforward

Re: The sad story of Heisenberg's doctoral oral exam (1998)

#44
post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's how it's described in the UK system, so you get people taking their "French orals" which always sounded funny to me.

People don't say viva any more? For viva voce. I must be getting old.

Are all oral exams vivas? My (distant, secondhand) impression was that it was mostly used for the thesis defense.

Re: The sad story of Heisenberg's doctoral oral exam (1998)

#45
post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

“verbal” can be applied to either spoken or written word, but I get the sense that people default to “verbal” over “oral” just out of discomfort.

No, verbal contrasts with written, as in verbal instructions versus written instructions. Is English your first language?

Yes, first and effectively only.

First definition at MW:

> of, relating to, or consisting of words

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/verbal

Re: The sad story of Heisenberg's doctoral oral exam (1998)

#46
post #4

TIL that a brilliant physicist nearly failed his physics exam (sort of). What is revealing is the broad-based knowledge that was expected of any student of those times. Unlike the super-specialities of today. A career in such fields (rather in any field) in those days required total dedication to academics. Also the importance of oral arguments and oral debate.

No, a degree in physics today is at least as demanding as it was back then. For instance, the topics discussed in the article, quantum mechanics and practical optics, are requirements in any physics degree I know of.

Re: The sad story of Heisenberg's doctoral oral exam (1998)

#47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is a very real sense that what he was a 'specialist' in was figuring out what's fundamental to all of physics - so not so narrow.

Well yeah but that is more of a coincidence that he happened to be a specialist in something with wide effects. QM had implications far beyond just those fundamentals, but I would imagine that he would not have known much about those fields that QM ended up having an effect on. For example, did he know much about optics, which was one of the fields most heavily affected by QM? The widespread impact of your field and…

Coincidence?

Re: The sad story of Heisenberg's doctoral oral exam (1998)

#48
post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> There is always a professor of distinguished, but long forgotten and superseded past-expertise on the orals. Wait, are you claiming that knowledge of experimental physics is "long forgotten and superseded"? As a mathematician, I'm all for recognising the importance of theoretical physics, and think that there's no reason a good theoretical physicist has also to be a good experimental physicist—but I wouldn't go so…

I think I did not make myself clear. When I read the article, I gathered that there was a necessity for expert in A to make orals in B because their style of presentation. To achieve acceptance at B, there were non-relevant to A requirements. Did I misunderstood?

I'd quibble with "non-relevant"

The goal of qualifying exams to produce well-rounded students---or at least ensure that they are minimally aware of the major intellectual traditions in their field.

It's not crazy to expect that a soon-to-be physics professor understands how a battery works, at least roughly.

Re: The sad story of Heisenberg's doctoral oral exam (1998)

#49
post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> There is always a professor of distinguished, but long forgotten and superseded past-expertise on the orals. Wait, are you claiming that knowledge of experimental physics is "long forgotten and superseded"? As a mathematician, I'm all for recognising the importance of theoretical physics, and think that there's no reason a good theoretical physicist has also to be a good experimental physicist—but I wouldn't go so…

I think I did not make myself clear. When I read the article, I gathered that there was a necessity for expert in A to make orals in B because their style of presentation. To achieve acceptance at B, there were non-relevant to A requirements. Did I misunderstood?

> When I read the article, I gathered that there was a necessity for expert in A to make orals in B because their style of presentation. To achieve acceptance at B, there were non-relevant to A requirements.

But you did not say "knowledge in A is not relevant to B" (itself an arguable claim, as my sibling commenter mattkrause points out (https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=33910025 )); you seemed to be dismissing the validity of "knowledge in A" entirely ("There is always a professor of distinguished, but long forgotten and superseded past-expertise on the orals"). If you meant only the milder claim you make here, then, not being a physicist, I do not think I am qualified to judge, and so withdraw my objection.

Re: The sad story of Heisenberg's doctoral oral exam (1998)

#50

These days, it is absolutely unheard of for someone to get a doctorate at age 21. I don't know whether it was unusual then.

I'm not sure about unusual or not, but I believe it was (then and there) possible to start a doctorate right after graduating from high-school (if I remember correctly from a biography of J. von Neumann).
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