Earlier quoted context omitted.
>It’s impossible to finish a transition when the old version has no end of life in sight. The end of life is gonna happen when ipv4 addresses end up being cost prohibitive. They are already some $50 an ip address. That is gonna be cost prohibitive in developing Countries, who already are making a transition to ipv6.
Increased demand will drive the price up, but that's not end of life. Developed countries will pay obscene amounts for ipv4 space. Just as they do for shorthand .com domains.
Tell HN: IPv6-only still pretty much unusable
341–350 of 649 posts
Re: Tell HN: IPv6-only still pretty much unusable
#342Earlier quoted context omitted.
Mayne RFC exists, but it os not used in teal world anywhere. In all servers, I configure IPv4 and IPv6 separately. Network setup is separate. DHCP daemons are separate. Firewall rules are separate. Network monitoring is separate. I would switch to that "IPv4+" system if it existed.. I am willing to use latest software/standards to future-proof my setup, but duplicating all the work is too much for me.
> I would switch to that "IPv4+" system if it existed.. I am willing to use latest software/standards to future-proof my setup, but duplicating all the work is too much for me. And exactly how would you accomplish this switch to a larger address space? Please explain the steps exactly how they would be done. Because IPv4 has 32 bits of address. Anything after IPv4 needed >32 bits of address. How exactly do you fit in…
Let's use "IPv4+" scheme as described by redox99: we still have dotted-decimal, and IPv4 addresses are guaranteed to be accessible via IPv4+ interface.
Right now, most application software need non-trivial rewrite to add ipv6 support: it has to support 2 sockets instead of 1, and ":" in address breaks basically every address parsing function out there. With IPv4+, you do search/replace "sockaddr_in"->"sockaddr_in4plus" and AF_INET->AF_INET4PLUS. That's it -- since backward compatibility guaranteed, my software still works on IPv4 system, and hostname parsing is not broken. There might be some minor breakage (unexpected dependencies on struct size or ipv4+ address string length), but it would be way, way smaller than the mess IPv6 is in too.
Right now, I have to set up my firewall twice for ipv4 and ipv6. But with ipv4+? I should be able to write "-m tcp --dport 80 -j ACCEPT" once and have it work with both.
Right now, all the network monitoring tools have to have separate "ipv4" and "ipv6" codepaths. But with ipv4+, there could be only one codepath. Yes, packet parsing will have to handle two different IP header format, but once it's parsed, old and new are treated identically.
Sure, the network layer will be more complex. The IP stack in kernel would need to determine if the address is "short" or "long", and format packets differently (either old or new format). The high-performance routers would need to be rewritten. The TCP/IP network card offload will need to accommodate new format.
But this would be way, way less intrusive than current IPv4->IPv6 transitions, because for each line of low-level network code there are millions of lines of application-level code, and for some totally stupid reason the app code transition was made way harder than needed.
Re: Tell HN: IPv6-only still pretty much unusable
#343Earlier quoted context omitted.
Let's not forget about the idea that ISPs would distribute a /56 range to residential users. You could split it in /64 ranges according to your requirements and everything would work fine. There is only one "minor" issue: all major ISPs in my country ( Brazil ) only provide a single /64. You can't get another /64 unless you upgrade to a very expensive business plan. That makes IPv6 not only useless but also a huge se…
RouterOS v7 supports DHCPv6 prefix delegation. You can request a delegated /64 per downstream interface and announce itself as router using these prefixes. You can still use your MikroTik device as router, stateful firewall, proxy. You don't have to mess with smaller than /64 allocations on links unless your provider forces a broken CPE on you that doesn't support DHCPv6 prefix delegation. Have you actually seen any…
Re: Tell HN: IPv6-only still pretty much unusable
#344Earlier quoted context omitted.
that will cause state and can hurt performance since it needs extra memory. one of the main selling point of IPv6 is try to be stateless as much as possible to ease up on routers and switches
Where's the need for state? Please excuse the abuse of terms below, but you can probably figure out what I mean. A v6 only host would send a v6 packet from it's full address to the v4+ address. A router on the path that has access to v4 internet would pull the v4 destination out, and reframe as a v4 packet (source ?, dest the v4 address), that's got the v6 packet, or maybe just the addresses, I dunno. This router wou…
Re: Tell HN: IPv6-only still pretty much unusable
#345Earlier quoted context omitted.
> I would switch to that "IPv4+" system if it existed.. I am willing to use latest software/standards to future-proof my setup, but duplicating all the work is too much for me. And exactly how would you accomplish this switch to a larger address space? Please explain the steps exactly how they would be done. Because IPv4 has 32 bits of address. Anything after IPv4 needed >32 bits of address. How exactly do you fit in…
In theory this could be handled by stuffing the extra 96 bits in an IP extension header. But this solves nothing because then any switch that isn’t IPv4+ aware will route packets incorrectly. Literally every single switch on the internet needs to be updated/replaced before you could start generating IPv4+ traffic otherwise the one outlier will send your IPv4+ packets off to Uzbekistan. OR Maybe you don’t use those 96…
I bet if we kept everything about IPv6 the same, but (1) made IPV6_V6ONLY mandatory and default to zero (2) did not use colon in IP address representation (3) recommended firewalls use same config rules for IPv4/IPv6 address.. then IPv6 would have significantly higher adoption right now.
Re: Tell HN: IPv6-only still pretty much unusable
#346Given how long it's been since IPv6 was released, I'm surprised that there hasn't been a big proposal for an IPv7 that would fix the alleged problems with IPv6. Has anyone worked on anything like that?
For the record I also believe that v6 will be abandoned and eventually replaced, most likely with a backwards-compatible protocol. Or something that provides a more compelling reason to upgrade than v6, which basically has nothing. Or at least nothing that people want - the lack of NAT is really an anti-feature.
The history of tech is littered with "standards" that never achieved critical mass.
Re: Tell HN: IPv6-only still pretty much unusable
#347Earlier quoted context omitted.
No.... Absolutely no... NAT is absolutely not in any way a substitute for an actual firewall, despite the side effect of 'blocking' ports. And how is "You have to think about which ports you want the NAT gateway to forward." any different from thinking about firewall rules? And most consumer CPE devices (i.e. 'router' etc) are perfectly capable of running a firewall, and often do. And any firewall that doesn't drop i…
It is a substitute to an actual firewall because I don't need a firewall since NAT makes all of my listening ports unavailable to my WAN.
NAT is not a substitute for a firewall.
Re: Tell HN: IPv6-only still pretty much unusable
#348Earlier quoted context omitted.
Mayne RFC exists, but it os not used in teal world anywhere. In all servers, I configure IPv4 and IPv6 separately. Network setup is separate. DHCP daemons are separate. Firewall rules are separate. Network monitoring is separate. I would switch to that "IPv4+" system if it existed.. I am willing to use latest software/standards to future-proof my setup, but duplicating all the work is too much for me.
> I would switch to that "IPv4+" system if it existed.. I am willing to use latest software/standards to future-proof my setup, but duplicating all the work is too much for me. And exactly how would you accomplish this switch to a larger address space? Please explain the steps exactly how they would be done. Because IPv4 has 32 bits of address. Anything after IPv4 needed >32 bits of address. How exactly do you fit in…
IPv6 is more than just address space extension. There’s all sorts of stuff packed in there that complicates the process.
All mobile clients are behind CG-NAT. We should have built standards around that instead of worrying about extending IP space to Mars or whatever.
Re: Tell HN: IPv6-only still pretty much unusable
#349IPv6 has been one of the biggest failures in the last couple of decades. And I don't mean adoption, I mean the standard itself. If IPv6 were IPv4 with more octets, then we would all have been using it for like a decade. Yes, I understand it would still require some breaking changes, but it would have been a million times easier to upgrade, as it would be a kind of superset of IPv4 (1.2.3.4 can be referred as 0.0.0.0.…
It "died" as an Internet-Draft: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-chimiak-enhanced...
Re: Tell HN: IPv6-only still pretty much unusable
#350> The GitHub API and its code load endpoints are not reachable via IPv6 Should it matter that GitHub or whatever doesn't support IPv6? I understood that it is possible to bridge the divide through an IPv6 IPv4 gateway. IPv6 is designed to incorporate the IPv4 32 bit address space as a segment of the IPv6 address space and automatically translating between the two is relatively straightforward. At least that what I be…
That's NAT64. It's something that Hetzner could and should be providing for their customers, but as far as I can see they aren't.
I don't imagine it would be hard to locate any number of IPv6 zealots proselytizing a NAT64-less world, but here we have someone that made a legitimate effort to apply IPv6 and failed because it wasn't there. One fewer potential convert added to the pile...