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Nigeria bans ATM cash withdrawals over $225 a week to force use of CBDC

cointelegraph.com

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Re: Nigeria bans ATM cash withdrawals over $225 a week to force use of CBDC

#81

Post by jeswin »

walterbell wrote: post #48
zuminator wrote: post #42

Can someone explain to me why this wouldn't have the perverse effect of discouraging the use of conventional bank accounts and causing people to just hold onto their cash or to put it in the equivalent of safe deposit boxes, or for wealthier people, to use "offshore" banks or to purchase assets easily convertible into cash?

India's approach was to cancel large-denomination banknotes, but it did not have the intended effect, https://archive.ph/ynouY > India’s prime minister, announced in November that Rs1,000 ($16) and Rs500 notes would no longer be legal tender, he suggested that corrupt officials, businessmen and criminals — popularly believed to hoard large amounts of illicit cash — would be stuck with “worthless pieces of paper”. But…

> India's approach was to cancel large-denomination banknotes, but it did not have the intended effect

The objective was not to cancel large-denomination banknotes, given that even larger notes were issued in their place (2000 Rupee notes). The printing of those notes were well underway when "demonetization" was announced. The goal was to understand how much cash remained in the system, and to move away from a cash-based economy.

Just as most government programs, results are mixed. It seemed more of a failure immediately afterward, but with 6 years of hindsight doesn't seem as bad. It kicked off India's digital economy, with UPI digital payments finding mass acceptance. UPI payments went from $1.5B in October 2016, to $10B the following month. This triggered mass adoption of phone payment apps, and the transaction value stands at $140+ billion per month as of today. In most tier-1 and tier-2 cities in India, you don't need cash or a credit card to survive.

As far as tax evasion is concerned, while it wasn't any sort of total success it did pave the way for more transactions to flow through monitored digital channels. Today banks don't accept any significant amount as cash deposits and there are strict caps on annual cash transactions. Overall, the "demonetization" event of Nov 2016 was imho a success as far as the government's objectives were concerned.

As a private citizen however, I don't particularly like the privacy problems that tag along with this.

Re: Nigeria bans ATM cash withdrawals over $225 a week to force use of CBDC

#82

Post by HPsquared »

hikingsimulator wrote: post #65
influxmoment wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Use of one bank's credit card is voluntary and not mandated by the central authority. It's the difference between choosing to only read the New York Times or a government enforcement of one source of news

Is it? I can't see living in Europe without an IBAN for instance -- and the card that comes with one. And that's not something the government is enforcing. Same in the US, you can't not have a credit card because of the credit score system there. Use of a credit card is mandatory because you need it to financially "exist."

There's a big difference between being able to borrow money, and being able to function.

Re: Nigeria bans ATM cash withdrawals over $225 a week to force use of CBDC

#83

Post by nix23 »

irjustin wrote: post #64
kornhole wrote: post #7

This is programmable money where the government controls how and when you can spend it. It does not take long for most people to figure out how this restricts their freedom. I guess they will make it a bargain in some way such as charging a higher rate for cash as they are doing here. This may be a training ground for other governments to learn how to force or incentivize us to use their CBDC's.

China was the leader in the push to pure cashless society. Cash still works, but only in small amounts. Lots of HNews'ers claim cash is the only way to keep your freedoms, but that simply glosses over the fact that even if you have piles of cash under your bed, you can't do anything meaningful if the government decides to prevent/limit banks from accepting cash deposits - say in a 5 year timeframe. After a while, bus…

>After a while, businesses will simply stop accepting cash.

So when you loose you smartphone/cards you cant buy another one, open your car, pay for a taxi or even sleep in a hotel because there is no chance to go home?

Switzerland had 3 complete blackouts (1-2 month ago) for paying digital. So the sellers had to make list (and hope you come back later to pay it.). If your country just accept digital, you trust fully on digital infrastructure...i think we all know what a good idea that is.

Re: Nigeria bans ATM cash withdrawals over $225 a week to force use of CBDC

#84

Post by contravariant »

walterbell wrote: post #18
kornhole wrote: post #7

This is programmable money where the government controls how and when you can spend it. It does not take long for most people to figure out how this restricts their freedom. I guess they will make it a bargain in some way such as charging a higher rate for cash as they are doing here. This may be a training ground for other governments to learn how to force or incentivize us to use their CBDC's.

Programmable money is like programmable computation, there are infinite applications on the spectrum of good and evil. If we are going to allow programmable money, we must allow competitors (e.g. citystate crypto, nationstate crypto, non-CB crypto) and incumbent payments like cash. https://cashessentials.org/us-considers-legislation-on-manda... > The Payment Choice Act is a bill that would require applicable retail b…

The only use I can imagine for programmable money is restrictions in the allowed transactions, or alternatively increase surveillance.

I can't see any non-authoritarian uses for it. Are there any good uses don't require a benevolent dictator?

Re: Nigeria bans ATM cash withdrawals over $225 a week to force use of CBDC

#85

Post by nix23 »

jjgreen wrote: post #76
irjustin wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

China was the leader in the push to pure cashless society. Cash still works, but only in small amounts. Lots of HNews'ers claim cash is the only way to keep your freedoms, but that simply glosses over the fact that even if you have piles of cash under your bed, you can't do anything meaningful if the government decides to prevent/limit banks from accepting cash deposits - say in a 5 year timeframe. After a while, bus…

I don't hear people saying cash protects freedom, but is does protect privacy . Can it be taken away, yes of course, if people don't care about privacy (and most don't) and don't use it then it can, and that seems to be a project in progress.

>freedom, but is does protect privacy

Those are overlapping themes...and you can add safety in to mix.

Re: Nigeria bans ATM cash withdrawals over $225 a week to force use of CBDC

#87

Post by WinstonSmith84 »

mgbmtl wrote: post #41
xs83 wrote: post #29

For anyone unsure as to why CBDC's are a horrendous idea please read this thread: https://twitter.com/punk6529/status/1494444624630403083?lang... Or as an unrolled thread here: https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1494444624630403083.html

That rant views freedom as purely individual, and not collective, or more likely the compromises in other to have both. It also doesn't explain the difference between CBDC with traditional debit/credit card systems, which do impose a ton of restrictions to some in order to protect freedoms for others (whether demonitizing a porn site that does not hold uploaders accountable, or reducing tax evasion).

you compare pear and apples. CBDC is to be compared with your current saving account, whereas a debit card is how you can spend the money from that account, whether it's a saving account or a CBDC. Likely debit cards will still exist with CBDC, assuming not everyone has a smartphone.

The "advantages" of CBDC, in regard to governments, is that this is a sort of entry in a database, possibly every dollar having an "id", perfect for tracking. They will know what you bought, when, etc. Also, governments could delete that entry to remove dollar from your account. They also could simply lock that account since the CB/government issue this currency as it's not controlled anymore by your local bank. In a sense, governments already have some of these capabilities, but it's a lot of procedures to access and block the money (remember the Canadian truckers?). And at the moment, it's even harder to track the flow of money in the current system. CBDC is going to make such control much easier and faster.

Re: Nigeria bans ATM cash withdrawals over $225 a week to force use of CBDC

#88

Post by ajsnigrutin »

influxmoment wrote: post #55
kornhole wrote: post #7

This is programmable money where the government controls how and when you can spend it. It does not take long for most people to figure out how this restricts their freedom. I guess they will make it a bargain in some way such as charging a higher rate for cash as they are doing here. This may be a training ground for other governments to learn how to force or incentivize us to use their CBDC's.

I think it'll take a government like China or North Korea with no inhibitions to fully utilize the potential of this technology

And the rest (USA, EU) will follow, with a lot of propaganda saying that it's a good thing.

Re: Nigeria bans ATM cash withdrawals over $225 a week to force use of CBDC

#89

Post by brigandish »

jjgreen wrote: post #76
irjustin wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

China was the leader in the push to pure cashless society. Cash still works, but only in small amounts. Lots of HNews'ers claim cash is the only way to keep your freedoms, but that simply glosses over the fact that even if you have piles of cash under your bed, you can't do anything meaningful if the government decides to prevent/limit banks from accepting cash deposits - say in a 5 year timeframe. After a while, bus…

I don't hear people saying cash protects freedom, but is does protect privacy . Can it be taken away, yes of course, if people don't care about privacy (and most don't) and don't use it then it can, and that seems to be a project in progress.

Since the lockdowns and people being barred from shopping etc there have definitely been people saying cash protects freedom. Privacy is a type of freedom anyway.

Re: Nigeria bans ATM cash withdrawals over $225 a week to force use of CBDC

#90

Post by smallnix »

lzaaz wrote: post #72
datadata wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the policy is outrageous, but that doesn't make the title correct. Also, 5% is not really significantly more than the typical fee an ATM already charges.

Here in Europe I don't get charged any kind of fee for withdrawals.

My bank only allows 3x free cash withdrawals a month. Other banks have total sum limits.
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