It’s not Tourette’s but a new type of mass sociogenic illness • Hacker News Board

Re: It’s not Tourette’s but a new type of mass sociogenic illness

#631

Post by spiralx » Wed, Dec 07, 2022, 6:47 AM UTC

claudiawerner wrote: post #346

spoils19 wrote: post #342

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The famously 'progressive' HackerNews? Years of reading the comments has led me to believe that the GPs assumption is mostly correct.

It could be my own bias, but I don't see HN as a particularly progressive place, at least as compared to, say, Reddit. Granted, it can be a good or a bad thing, but HN has a far wider spectrum of opinions that get upvoted; IME trans issues in particular dominate comment threads when it comes to LGBT issues.

HN is probably the most right-wing social media site I use TBH, I'm amazed that this thread is still producing civil discussion.

Re: It’s not Tourette’s but a new type of mass sociogenic illness

#632

Post by robotresearcher » Wed, Dec 07, 2022, 6:47 AM UTC

faeriechangling wrote: post #604

reb wrote: post #558

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The times we live in are absolutely brutal for people who struggle with diversity of belief (wherever they are on the sociopolitical spectrum). Never before has an individual had so many perspectives to contend with at once. It breaks a lot of people in different ways, although I think people who can navigate the noise without losing their sense of self are better for the experience. Still, it's impossible to deny th…

I’ve absolutely met people especially with limited language skills who get confused and frustrated by all these complicated concepts they’re expected to understand to simply not be accused of being hateful. Not to be too Orwellian, but I’ve often wondered why nobody say, talks about removing gendered pronouns altogether in formal speech instead of adding 50 new ones for instance. People seem to only talk about adding…

> I’ve often wondered why nobody say, talks about removing gendered pronouns altogether in formal speech instead of adding 50 new ones for instance.

'They' instead of 'he/she' is one of the things people actually use, and it's exactly dropping the gendered pronoun in favor of an existing neutral pronoun. It's strictly simpler and smaller language. My teenage kids use this construction a lot and I'm getting used to it.

Re: It’s not Tourette’s but a new type of mass sociogenic illness

#633

Post by rendall » Wed, Dec 07, 2022, 6:54 AM UTC

maxbond wrote: post #324

rendall wrote: post #312

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The narrative you have presented is frequently weaponized... Indeed. This is both true, and a non-sequitur. Bad-faith arguers exist. Let us acknowledge the fact that some people will reprehensibly refer to every trans woman as a "man in a dress". Let's assume the best about each other. If you're trying to say that everyone is a TERF who points out that some men (again, not trans women) will take advantage, or that…

> [Y]ou're not addressing the concern, but dismissing it. You're right, I should have done better there. To me, until this comment where you described this as "reprehensible", it sounded like you were employing "just asking questions" rhetoric, because you were asking all the same questions as TERFs, and to me it appeared you were only holding back the transphobic conclusions. However, that I should have done a bette…

> You're right, I should have done better there.

Most people are like me: sincerely caring, well-disposed to trans people, understand that trans rights are human rights, bear absolutely zero ill-will and will happily use preferred pronouns. Would be terribly frightened for a trans-woman to be placed in a man's prison, for instance. And, nevertheless, would simply like straight-forward policy proposals to answer those specific concerns.

So far, the only policy proposals that address those concerns have been from conservatives, which are not ideal to say the least, either. From liberals, sadly, have come answers along the lines of "Asking questions like that is TERF territory. You don't want to be a TERF, do you?" Which is clearly not an answer, and concedes the entire policy platform to conservatives.

I mean, it could be that the liberal response is, essentially "Times are changing and the exceedingly minuscule chance of creepy men in womens' locker rooms and women's prisons is a small price to pay for human rights" but that's unconvincing, to be honest. Creepy men who have a right to be in womens' locker rooms and prisons will become a problem unless it's actually addressed in advance. That's nothing to do with trans women. It is, unfortunately, a problem with men.

But no, I don't have answers, here. Before, it seemed to be "Be discreet and make good-faith efforts to pass as your preferred gender and people will generally leave you alone." The "passing" part is not ideal, but at least serves as some kind of costly social signal that this person is really trying to blend in and not make waves. Without that, not sure.

Re: It’s not Tourette’s but a new type of mass sociogenic illness

#634

Post by dusted » Wed, Dec 07, 2022, 6:57 AM UTC

kneebonian wrote: post #378

dusted wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My main concern is how to induce specifics in people and start profiting from it :D Wouldn't it just be wonderfully dystopic if we could induce ticks in people that made them clean the streets and do the grunt work? :D

"A SQUAT grey building of only thirty-four stories. Over the main entrance the words, CENTRAL LONDON HATCHERY AND CONDITIONING CENTRE, and, in a shield, the World State’s motto, COMMUNITY, IDENTITY, STABILITY." - A Brave New World

IIRC, in brave new world, they hacked people at the zygote stage, making the workers dumber by adding ethanol or something like that? :)

Re: It’s not Tourette’s but a new type of mass sociogenic illness

#635

Post by bongoman37 » Wed, Dec 07, 2022, 7:03 AM UTC

kaesar14 wrote: post #601

zozbot234 wrote: post #595

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're looking at a tiny elite slice of the modern West (I mean, sitcoms? Seriously?) and taking it as representative of the whole world. There's probably a whole lot more homophobia, misogyny and religious hatred now in some highly religious countries than there was 25 years ago or so. And the Internet is even less representative.

By an absolute quantity or an absolute measure? I daresay at least in India, the toleration for homosexuality, women, and general non-conformity is quite higher than it used to be. Casteism and religious hatred still exists in great quantity but has it improved relative to 1950? Probably? Things are not perfect but you’re underrating how awful they used to be.

No post body was provided.

Re: It’s not Tourette’s but a new type of mass sociogenic illness

#636

Post by rendall » Wed, Dec 07, 2022, 7:06 AM UTC

michaelmrose wrote: post #369

rendall wrote: post #298

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> This narrative of predatory trans people does not bare out... I didn't say predatory trans people. I said predatory men. Have you met men? Some men will put on a dress, call themselves trans, and fondle themselves in a women's locker room. Again, pretending this is about trans people is disingenuous. This is about (some) men. And, again, whether you genuinely dismiss the concern because you genuinely disbelieve tha…

This is a meaningless concern. Any man who would put on a dress to come assault you in the bathroom could skip the dress part and just come in the bathroom and assault you. It's like saying some rapists have red hair. It's true but its not meaningful because no fruitful thing can be derived from the fact nor strategy obtained. There are millions of trans people in the world but presumably few rapists in dresses. The…

Unfortunately, this is not an answer, and so, you are conceding public policy to people who do have answers that you will not like.

What do you propose to do about a creepy man who hears that all he has to do is self-identify as a woman and now has a right to expose his penis to women? This is not a trans woman, but a man who just will not leave his penis alone in a women's locker room. Women avert their eyes, but he shakes it around, puts tassels on it, gets excited by the turmoil. "This is not a thing that will ever happen" is an answer, sure, but when it does happen, your conservative opposition will use the exceedingly rare incident to exclude trans women from locker rooms. So, what is a better answer that actually addresses the concern?

Re: It’s not Tourette’s but a new type of mass sociogenic illness

#637

Post by deanCommie » Wed, Dec 07, 2022, 7:42 AM UTC

LawTalkingGuy wrote: post #452

deanCommie wrote: post #367

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> How about all the kids suddenly becoming trans? Please do not repeat this right-wing talking point. It is a moral panic, and it causes real harm to kids who need genuine mental health support who are instead being dismissed as being part of a trend. "all the kids" are not suddenly becoming trans - the incident rates in society are still extremely small. All rises in incidents of transgenderism are easily explained…

> Please do not repeat this right-wing talking point. Please do not make this a partisan issue. Some of us have been following the sexually regressive trend of calling our children's bodies defective and broken because they don't match the viewers' sexual stereotypes for quite a while now, and there was pretty widespread consensus across political and religious ideologies that our kids didn't need surgery to be okay.…

This is a gishgallop of modern pedophilia-associating talking points from the first sentence onward. ("sexually regressive trend of calling our children's bodies defective and broken because they don't match the viewers' sexual stereotypes" WHAT??)

There's just so much that is horrifically wrong and sounds like a FOX News watcher's sweaty fantasy of what they think transgenderism is.

It absolutely is a partisan issue, only insofar as the "classic liberals" on HackerNews who are promoting this transphobia haven't understood yet that they are not as centrist as they'd like to believe.

I don't know where an of these facts come from, but let's just knock out some bulletpoints:

* Transgenderism is testable, evaluatable, and has little to do with gender stereotypes like a boy playing with dolls

* A boy can absolutely wear a dress to elementary school without a teacher starting talk of transition.

* But you're also dreaming if you think at any point - 30 years ago, 15 years ago, or now - a boy can wear a dress to school and not get bullied by a meaningful percentage of his male peers.

* All transgender counselling starts with pre-existing condition consideration. As a trans friend of mine said "The first thing my transition counsellor asked me to do was quit my job. We needed to make sure I wasn't just depressed because I hated my job so much"

* Is my claim about low rates of transition regret incorrect, or is it that my comparison is exceptionally misleading because it IS correct? Which is it?

Re: It’s not Tourette’s but a new type of mass sociogenic illness

#638

Post by deanCommie » Wed, Dec 07, 2022, 7:52 AM UTC

beckon69 wrote: post #474

LawTalkingGuy wrote: post #452

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Please do not repeat this right-wing talking point. Please do not make this a partisan issue. Some of us have been following the sexually regressive trend of calling our children's bodies defective and broken because they don't match the viewers' sexual stereotypes for quite a while now, and there was pretty widespread consensus across political and religious ideologies that our kids didn't need surgery to be okay.…

I appreciated this thoughtful response (rebuttal) to OP. I agree with your concept of "back in the 00s you'd never have a teacher scold a child for using wrong-sex clothes/toys because we'd largely gotten rid of the concept". This dovetails into one of the paradox's of the trans-adjacent ideology that I haven't been able to square in my own head, which is that transitioning genders is predicated on strong gender norm…

I'm OP, and I did not appreciate this rebuttal, and consider it alarmist and terrible. I responded here if you want to take a look: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=33891710

To your point, though, there is an explanation there too.

The word is complex and full of many intersecting axis of considerations. For example - it can be logically consistent to be both pro renewable energy investment of all kinds, but also be wary of nuclear power, and the long-term consequences to our world if we expand investment into it. It's not a simple solution. Turning off nuclear power plants to burn coal or gas is clearly terrible. Not investing in solar/wind/etc because nuclear plants seem better in teh short term is also not great.

Likewise, the reality is that our society DOES contain strong gender norms. You might think we don't because women make up >50% of colleges, are in the professional world, and might believe other concepts like the wage gap are exaggerated. And those can be all true. But our world is definitely still deeply GENDERED.

There are people who believe it shouldn't be, and are working to buck those trends (and those people, generally, receive equally as much backlash as those transgender).

There are people who are working on "dismantling the patriarchy" and associated systems of capitalist economic systems, and other things that may or may not be reasonable, may or may not be possible, and may or may not make things worse.

But the point is that some of those people are transgender. And some are not. It's an independent axis. Transgender people - by and large - like most people - aren't looking to tear down the binary gender norms in our society - they're just seeking to exist in society as the other gender.

Now, if you claim that a society should be more tolerant of being male and exhibiting feminine traits (and vice versa), I would agree with you. If you claimed that IF our society became that, there would likely be fewer transgender people, I would also theorize that is true.

And if you believe that is a virtuous thing to pursue, let's both do so. But it's not a process that we can achieve overnight, and requires the support and progress of many others. Things have been progressing, but very slowly.

Meanwhile, we have people who are suffering today, and who we have statistical evidence that there is a solution for what ails them. Why deny them this?

Re: It’s not Tourette’s but a new type of mass sociogenic illness

#639

Post by deanCommie » Wed, Dec 07, 2022, 8:01 AM UTC

fock wrote: post #413

deanCommie wrote: post #367

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> How about all the kids suddenly becoming trans? Please do not repeat this right-wing talking point. It is a moral panic, and it causes real harm to kids who need genuine mental health support who are instead being dismissed as being part of a trend. "all the kids" are not suddenly becoming trans - the incident rates in society are still extremely small. All rises in incidents of transgenderism are easily explained…

> All rises in incidents of transgenderism are easily explained by a more tolerant society accepting it. The same appeared when we stopped. Explained (aka semi-solid empirical experiments - where are those?) or imagined (aka ideological beliefs, much like the right)? > And by and large, with some exceptions that get consistently magnified by those with an agenda, it is not something you can just do on a whim, and gen…

I assume you're American, because as someone European-born and Canadian-raised, I have no qualms about there being costs in my society to help the well being of others. That's what my taxes are for. I'm happy to have them pay for emergency care of others, for cancer treatments, for birth control, for anti-depressants, and for gender confirmation hormones or procedures.

Your comparison to a leg amputation suggests someone who's a self-made burden on society - which is dubious because I'm not sure if prosthetics and crutches are that expensive - but mostly because the comparison doesn't make sense. How is someone who is transgender a burden on society at all once they complete transition? The medicine?

Please do not learn about transgender people's life experiences from Public TV. You've got the most powerful tools in front of you - talk to people on the internet. Find them on twitter and read their life experiences. Better yet, look around your workplace. The STEM industry is FILLED with trans folks. Meet them, learn from them.

Re: It’s not Tourette’s but a new type of mass sociogenic illness

#640

Post by nverno » Wed, Dec 07, 2022, 8:13 AM UTC

amelius wrote: post #229

rubidium wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

All behavior is total behavior, so it doesn’t really matter. Article makes the point that this is attention seeking behavior and often used as an excuse to avoid unpleasant tasks. Whether the teens are aware they are choosing the tic, eventually it becomes habitual and they “can’t stop”. Except they can after meeting with a trained phycologist. Get to the root of the behavior and usually the behavior goes away.

Many OCD sufferers will not agree.

In this case, however, the problem going away after diagnosis was one of the indicators of the psychosis.

> Fourth, in some patients, a rapid and complete remission occurred after exclusion of the diagnosis of Tourette syndrome.