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It’s not Tourette’s but a new type of mass sociogenic illness

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611–620 of 704 posts

Re: It’s not Tourette’s but a new type of mass sociogenic illness

#611
post #371

Stuff like this makes me wonder if taboo and stigma "evolved" in societies as defense against the spread of behavior that could cause a breakdown of social order. For example, if something like dancing mania[0] got out of hand, then important jobs could be left undone and people starve or whatever. So if the notion that such behavior is bad is drilled into everyone's mind before being exposed, then they are more like…

There's a whole field studying how our cultural capacity to create culture is one of the key abilities of human beings as a species, and how the cultures that we create are themselves subject to evolutionary pressures.

One good introduction is "The secret of our success" by Joseph Heinrich. There's a good review here:

https://slatestarcodex.com/2019/06/04/book-review-the-secret...

I have developed a lot more respect for traditional cultures and religions as a result of adopting this perspective.

Re: It’s not Tourette’s but a new type of mass sociogenic illness

#612
post #558

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The times we live in are absolutely brutal for people who struggle with diversity of belief (wherever they are on the sociopolitical spectrum). Never before has an individual had so many perspectives to contend with at once. It breaks a lot of people in different ways, although I think people who can navigate the noise without losing their sense of self are better for the experience. Still, it's impossible to deny th…

I’ve absolutely met people especially with limited language skills who get confused and frustrated by all these complicated concepts they’re expected to understand to simply not be accused of being hateful. Not to be too Orwellian, but I’ve often wondered why nobody say, talks about removing gendered pronouns altogether in formal speech instead of adding 50 new ones for instance. People seem to only talk about adding…

Humans favor adding over subtracting in problem solving: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26727878

Re: It’s not Tourette’s but a new type of mass sociogenic illness

#613
post #421

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not clear to me that discussing the effect causes the effect. It's an effect that's been specifically documented in response to media coverage of suicide. The consensus from suicide prevention orgs seems to be that compassionate, interpersonal discussions about suicide prevention are probably helpful. Not sure if that's backed by research.

It is helpful because discussing a negative thing in society spreads it without need. Like if you find out everyone’s secrets and scandals, you become more uninhibited

So if I understand what you're saying correctly, you view talking about suicide as something that's going to potentially spread suicide/suicidal ideation and therefor if you're going to talk about it that's got to be balanced by a real need for that discussion?

Re: It’s not Tourette’s but a new type of mass sociogenic illness

#614

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I know it doesn't feel that way right now, but there is probably no time in history where racism, sexism, homophobia, classism, religious hatred, slavery, etc. were less normalized than right now. These things are sadly all too common, there's lots of work to do, and we must not be complacent about past successes. But when I was a kid, homosexuality was illegal. Twenty years ago gay fear and stupid women were typical…

You're looking at a tiny elite slice of the modern West (I mean, sitcoms? Seriously?) and taking it as representative of the whole world. There's probably a whole lot more homophobia, misogyny and religious hatred now in some highly religious countries than there was 25 years ago or so. And the Internet is even less representative.

I agree that things don't move in one direction all the time. Iran, for instance has certainly de-liberalized (although they might be re-liberalizing, fingers crossed). The overall trend in the past couple centuries seems to be towards tolerance, though. As an example, in most countries at least a quarter of people think being gay is okay [1]. 100 years ago, where on Earth could you have gotten 25 out of a hundred people to say that being gay is okay? Perhaps in Berlin in the 1920s, but no where else as far as I know.

https://www.pewresearch.org/global/2013/06/04/the-global-div...

Re: It’s not Tourette’s but a new type of mass sociogenic illness

#615

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not sure how you came away with that conclusion. It's the exact opposite. In a culture where sexism is more common, casual sexism will not stand out at all. The average guy will not appear more attractive. In a culture where sexism is largely frowned upon, being sexist but not too sexist is an act that stands out. A man who is either not sufficiently sexist or is silently sexist (for fear of repercussion) will appear…

You are making a ton of assumptions about the nature of confidence, attraction, and sexism, which potentially reveal your own biases. For one thing, I don't think that confidence and placing someone on a pedestal are "polar opposites" of each other, rather they are entirely different and uncorrelated dimensions of personality that can exist in any combination. There are models of behavior describing personality acros…

They did not claim that "confidence" and "placing women on a pedestal" are polar opposites.

They claimed that "being sexist in front of a woman" and "lacking confidence" are polar opposites.

They also claimed that "being sexist in front of a woman" and "placing women on a pedestal" are polar opposites.

Do you disagree with their actual claims?

Apologies for possible pedantry. I think their actual claims are actually compatible with "confidence" and "pedestal-placing" being different dimensions.

Re: It’s not Tourette’s but a new type of mass sociogenic illness

#616
post #122

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The way we have leapt from one societal belief to the other end of the spectrum is, I believe, interfering with objective healthcare. We started at "people who believe and behave outside of gender norms are perverted freaks" and we jumped straight to "you are whatever you think you are." Between those two paradigms there are questions it has become very difficult to research. Questions like "is it possible we are cat…

> "you are whatever you think you are." You should do some reading on how gender affirming therapy and treatment works, because it is absolutely not standard to pursue treatment immediately without any process or consultation. Whether transition is the right option is absolutely explored, it's just explored in a way that allows the patient to come to a decision rather than a doctor making the gatekeeping whether this…

I said that's the societal paradigm, not the healthcare professional opinion. Doctors recognized the legitimacy of gender dysphoria long before society at large did. There are large numbers of self-diagnosed people and not an insignificant number of them are taking improvised or illicit hormone medications. In addition, many jurisdictions such as the UK are moving to make hormone therapy medications available over the counter or after a brief consultation.

Re: It’s not Tourette’s but a new type of mass sociogenic illness

#617
post #535

The times we live in, utterly bizarre. Pre-internet, one would rarely be exposed to ideas that are extreme, unhinged, insane or downright weird. It would still happen but in moderation, for which I'll use the stereotype "village idiot". A village idiot is isolated for having off-base ideas and behavior, hence bad ideas don't take root. Now it's as if all the village idiots of the world had a meeting and started to ru…

>A village idiot is isolated for having off-base ideas and behavior, hence bad ideas don't take root.

>The normalization of doxxing, snitching, gossiping and cancel culture as "conversation" tools.

You seem to be contradicting yourself here. Back in the pre-internet days, the "village idiot" was "canceled". No one bothered to listen to his idiotic blatherings or attempting to debate or debunk him; everyone just ignored him because he was a waste of time. Hence, he was "canceled", or "isolated" as you put it. But now you're complaining about similarly stupid and dangerous people being "canceled" (i.e., ignored and shunned).

Re: It’s not Tourette’s but a new type of mass sociogenic illness

#618
post #535

The times we live in, utterly bizarre. Pre-internet, one would rarely be exposed to ideas that are extreme, unhinged, insane or downright weird. It would still happen but in moderation, for which I'll use the stereotype "village idiot". A village idiot is isolated for having off-base ideas and behavior, hence bad ideas don't take root. Now it's as if all the village idiots of the world had a meeting and started to ru…

I personally believe that this is a great example of a moral panic. There isn't much of a there, there . If you look closely. For example, let's look at the Tide Pod incident, how many teens in total ate tide pods? 86. A global moral panic was launched over 86 teenagers doing a very stupid thing as teenagers are wont to do. > It’s true that since the Tide Pod Challenge began, the American Association of Poison Contro…

> For example, let's look at the Tide Pod incident, how many teens in total ate tide pods?

You say 86, but that was just the number of children reported to the AAPC. I think it'd be reasonable to assume that there were many more cases that were not reported (due to varied levels of ingestion/concern) or were reported elsewhere and so not included in AAPC stats.

Some of what you call "Moral Panic" and "Pearl-Clutching" in regard to the whole tide pod thing was also what I'd call "Education". It informed both parents and children that this was occurring and why it was a bad idea. I think it's also safe to assume this helped prevent a few cases.

Young children were and still are the primary concern when it comes to ingesting household poisons, and there have been active efforts and ongoing campaigns for ages warning both parents and children about that particular danger (see for example https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mr._Yuk), but what made the tide-pod challenge remarkable and newsworthy is that very few people would have expected that so many teenagers would be stupid enough to do something like that.

All that isn't to say that the media didn't jump at the chance to generate clicks by exploiting parent's fear and exaggerating the phenomenon, but it wasn't simply something invented to panic parents the way the D&D scare was, and it was just one of several stupid dangerous things children were doing around that time motivated by internet points and social media attention.

In the case of this "Not Tourette’s", while I'm sure it has been being reported elsewhere and perhaps even irresponsibly, the source is an academic paper and no matter the actual prevalence of this behavior it's absolutely appropriate for something like this to be reported and discussed in that setting. Even if this does turn out to be nothing but a blip in referrals that never amounts to a larger trend of great concern and the fad of kids pretending to have Tourette’s dies off quickly, that's perfectly fine.

What matters is that there are records and reports so that all available evidence can be collected, compared, and studied in the event that it isn't simply a non-issue that dies off on its own. In the meantime, because it is happening, it seems like a good thing for healthcare providers to be aware of what's been observed so far and that researchers can look into the "Why" behind it.

Re: It’s not Tourette’s but a new type of mass sociogenic illness

#619

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're looking at a tiny elite slice of the modern West (I mean, sitcoms? Seriously?) and taking it as representative of the whole world. There's probably a whole lot more homophobia, misogyny and religious hatred now in some highly religious countries than there was 25 years ago or so. And the Internet is even less representative.

By an absolute quantity or an absolute measure? I daresay at least in India, the toleration for homosexuality, women, and general non-conformity is quite higher than it used to be. Casteism and religious hatred still exists in great quantity but has it improved relative to 1950? Probably? Things are not perfect but you’re underrating how awful they used to be.

Are you kidding? With what Modi has done and is continuing to do, India is becoming far more repressive. It is another one of the countries I would fear to visit because of reactions to what I might say.

Re: It’s not Tourette’s but a new type of mass sociogenic illness

#620

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>don't need to exist because of a reason that's explicit Why do men have nipples? Because there is no reason not to. Evolution need not a reason, but unless things do have a purpose, all things have a cost, whether it is raw unnecessary complexity, inefficient energy expenditure, or a novel external selective pressure. Taboos and traditions may not _seem_ to have purpose - but that ignorance is basically the inverse…

A bit off topic but it might be an idea to move away from men's nipples [1] as an example of redundant evolution. It's true to say often an evolution trait has no obvious reason, possibly the reason no longer exists. Most every community have a tangle of a belief system outside of anything religious. Moving away from more obvious isms, I grew up surrounded by fierce ageism especially in regard to the dating set. As y…

Men's nipples are probably useful for the same reason many electronic products have various things on their circuit boards that aren't used: on those products, it's cheaper to manufacture a single circuit board to cover multiple variations of the product, and just attach the components needed for that particular model, leaving the rest unused. Genetically, it's probably easier for men and women to just share the same genetic code that produces nipples.
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