It’s not Tourette’s but a new type of mass sociogenic illness • Hacker News Board

Re: It’s not Tourette’s but a new type of mass sociogenic illness

#541

Post by LesZedCB » Tue, Dec 06, 2022, 11:47 PM UTC

jnovek wrote: post #526

LesZedCB wrote: post #524

Earlier quoted context omitted.

this reads to me like a typical modern's response to an unfamiliarity with the feeling of actually being one of the alienated people who are attempting with varying degrees of success to find anything of substance. but really I think that alienation is dealt with differently by each subject, with temporally near groups just chosing similar patterns based on environmental and cultural factors. there isn't any "right"…

As someone who deals with the misery of an “invisible” chronic illness, one of my great fears is that everyone (or the majority, anyway) thinks like GP.

yeah, my partner has similar chronic issues and bristled when I showed her.

Re: It’s not Tourette’s but a new type of mass sociogenic illness

#542

Post by nordsieck » Tue, Dec 06, 2022, 11:49 PM UTC

el_nahual wrote: post #503

lo_zamoyski wrote: post #495

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's no need for convoluted explanations. A good taboo, understood as a restriction on certain kinds of behavior or speech at least in certain circumstances, exists to protect some good. It's the same reason (or one of the reasons) we partition our houses into rooms by purpose. Human flourishing requires certain limits, not letting it all hang out. The latter is more akin to the liberal notion of freedom understoo…

"limitless indulgence of the appetites and desires" has a different word. That's not freedom , that's called debauchery and has absolutely nothing to do with "liberalism" in the political science meaning of the term.

> "limitless indulgence of the appetites and desires" has a different word. That's not freedom, that's called debauchery and has absolutely nothing to do with "liberalism" in the political science meaning of the term.

Could you explain more?

From what I can tell, there is no inherent separation between freedom and debauchery aside from someone's judgement about whether particular choices where good for the person who made them.

Re: It’s not Tourette’s but a new type of mass sociogenic illness

#543

Post by Jerrrry » Tue, Dec 06, 2022, 11:50 PM UTC

ravenstine wrote: post #511

lo_zamoyski wrote: post #495

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's no need for convoluted explanations. A good taboo, understood as a restriction on certain kinds of behavior or speech at least in certain circumstances, exists to protect some good. It's the same reason (or one of the reasons) we partition our houses into rooms by purpose. Human flourishing requires certain limits, not letting it all hang out. The latter is more akin to the liberal notion of freedom understoo…

> There's no need for convoluted explanations. I don't see how it's at all convoluted. If anything, it's too reductive. Taboos, traditions, etc., don't need to exist because of a reason that's explicit. Sometimes, they do, but that doesn't explain the taboos that don't make obvious sense. A taboo can be more or less a form of "cultural neuron" that doesn't have an explicit purpose but incidentally changes the balance…

>don't need to exist because of a reason that's explicit

Why do men have nipples? Because there is no reason not to.

Evolution need not a reason, but unless things do have a purpose, all things have a cost, whether it is raw unnecessary complexity, inefficient energy expenditure, or a novel external selective pressure.

Taboos and traditions may not _seem_ to have purpose - but that ignorance is basically the inverse of our God of the (Knowledge) Gaps. Not being attracted to individuals you spent a large amount of time with - and shaming/shunning those who do - is a positive instinct that directly reduces the incidence of incest, which is an act that _literally_ degrades biodiversity.

Sexism and racism make sense too. Sexism gives an immediate rise to familial hierarchies, which have more benefit in a hunter-gatherer context. Racism/Xenophobia is a geat instinct when we were territorial primates - those with differing skin tones/significantly different facial structure were likely competitors for resources and carried diseases you wouldn't have defenses for.

Religions all stem from the upper castes of ALL developed civilizations. The priests/shamans/wizards/sorcerers/wise men were the ones with the celestial knowledge required to dictate when to plant crops.

We evolved from apes; taboos and traditions are just remnants of our collective unconscious, and are just unneeded artifacts we will grow out of as technology and modernity progress.

Re: It’s not Tourette’s but a new type of mass sociogenic illness

#544

Post by Kye » Tue, Dec 06, 2022, 11:51 PM UTC

vinegarden wrote: post #394

Kye wrote: post #234

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's honestly enough to remember and point out the whole concept is based on a study that only polled parents who aren't supportive of their trans kids. Anyone with a shred of genuine interest in being fair and accurate should be able to see right through the study. It's so bad that even prominent transphobes don't seem to talk about it anymore.

ROGD is the term given to the phenomenon of teenagers with no history of gender dysphoria suddenly announcing a transgender identity, typically after spending massive amounts of time online, and often after a friend has announced that they are trans. Who would be better placed to notice this set of circumstances than their parents?

No, it's a term invented by a deeply flawed and thoroughly discredited study.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rapid-onset_gender_dysphoria_c...

>> "The term "rapid-onset gender dysphoria", coined by Littman, first appeared in a July 2016 notice that was posted on four websites, recruiting parents to respond to a research survey that Littman described as "Rapid onset gender dysphoria, social media, and peer groups".[27] In the title of Littman's poster abstract for the study, published in February 2017, the phrase appeared as "Rapid Onset of Gender Dysphoria".[28]"

It's not a thing. What is a thing is kids finding language to describe what they experience. Expanding vocabulary and ability to communicate is normally lauded and praised.

Re: It’s not Tourette’s but a new type of mass sociogenic illness

#545

Post by nonrandomstring » Tue, Dec 06, 2022, 11:53 PM UTC

I think this is why Orwell put the "two-minute hate" into Nineteen Eighty Four. Chuck Palahniuk agrees. It is after all a quite strange device within the story. Otherwise Emmanuel Goldstein is a standard "outsider/other" hate figure to focus the alienated minds into war ritual, but the chanting takes on a stronger meaning in Orwell's story akin to something from Conrad's Heart of Darkness (Apocalypse Now).

Then there are the outbursts of Howard Beale in Chayefsky's 1976 Network.... "Open the window and scream - I'm as mad as hell and I'm not going to take it any more".

There is a thing, "primal scream therapy" (Arthur Janov) known to have outstanding effects for these kinds of neuroses, but it's somewhat discredited, perhaps because it reveals socially uncomfortable truths.

I'm lucky enough to live in a place where one can yomp out a few miles and shout at the hills and the sea.

EDIT: Forgot to address the point of how tics astem from blocked affect, but I expect many of you will make that connection naturally.

Re: It’s not Tourette’s but a new type of mass sociogenic illness

#546

Post by theknocker » Tue, Dec 06, 2022, 11:58 PM UTC

fleddr wrote: post #535

The times we live in, utterly bizarre. Pre-internet, one would rarely be exposed to ideas that are extreme, unhinged, insane or downright weird. It would still happen but in moderation, for which I'll use the stereotype "village idiot". A village idiot is isolated for having off-base ideas and behavior, hence bad ideas don't take root. Now it's as if all the village idiots of the world had a meeting and started to ru…

No post body was provided.

Re: It’s not Tourette’s but a new type of mass sociogenic illness

#547

Post by 8f2ab37a-ed6c » Tue, Dec 06, 2022, 11:59 PM UTC

fleddr wrote: post #535

The times we live in, utterly bizarre. Pre-internet, one would rarely be exposed to ideas that are extreme, unhinged, insane or downright weird. It would still happen but in moderation, for which I'll use the stereotype "village idiot". A village idiot is isolated for having off-base ideas and behavior, hence bad ideas don't take root. Now it's as if all the village idiots of the world had a meeting and started to ru…

I wonder if this is affecting all of humanity en masse or if this is just another form of infection, mental in this case, that thins the herd and ignores people who can resist its effects and continue living normal lives. Most of us within a healthy community with plenty of opportunity for gaining status, loving family and diverse friends who are willing to call us out on bullshit, purpose in life, and in good physical health are unlikely to get sucked into extreme TERFism, white supremacy, TikTok tics and god knows what else.

Those with weaker "immune systems" succumb to the mental viruses and cause themselves possibly irreparable harm by either joining a radical cult of their choosing or falling into some medical pathology rabbit hole.

Re: It’s not Tourette’s but a new type of mass sociogenic illness

#548

Post by pclmulqdq » Tue, Dec 06, 2022, 11:59 PM UTC

nordsieck wrote: post #542

el_nahual wrote: post #503

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"limitless indulgence of the appetites and desires" has a different word. That's not freedom , that's called debauchery and has absolutely nothing to do with "liberalism" in the political science meaning of the term.

> "limitless indulgence of the appetites and desires" has a different word. That's not freedom , that's called debauchery and has absolutely nothing to do with "liberalism" in the political science meaning of the term. Could you explain more? From what I can tell, there is no inherent separation between freedom and debauchery aside from someone's judgement about whether particular choices where good for the person wh…

I'm not the parent, but I assume it's along the lines of a pretty famous quote by pope JP2: "Freedom consists not in doing what we like, but in having the right to do what we ought."

I think I agree with this on a certain level, but also debauchery is fun and can be useful.

Re: It’s not Tourette’s but a new type of mass sociogenic illness

#549

Post by mcv » Wed, Dec 07, 2022, 12:00 AM UTC

LawTalkingGuy wrote: post #478

mcv wrote: post #141

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is an issue I'm somewhat concerned about. Let's first be clear that gender dysphoria is a real thing, and transitioning has been a very real solution for many people, and has helped people from depression, possibly suicidal, to a much happier state, and that's great. It's vital we don't lose that. At the same time, it's been politicised; there's a lot of conservative pushback claiming this isn't real, leading to…

> Let's first be clear that gender dysphoria is a real thing To be clear, the pain someone is feeling is real but the "reality" of a condition is a bit of an unclear concept. We can't really address this until we try to control for the gendered expectations of the sufferer, their surroundings, and any observers. Suzie Green of Mermaids has said that some of their motivation in transing their son as a toddler was his…

> Suzie Green of Mermaids has said that some of their motivation in transing their son as a toddler was his father's discomfort with some of the toys he was playing with and the homosexual connotations.

Excuse me, a toddler? A toddler and any kind of sexual connotations? I have no idea what you're talking about, but you're packing a lot of red flags in that sentence.

> > and transitioning has been a very real solution for many people

> Again, hard to say

No, this part isn't hard to say. Whether in some cases strict gender expectations might cause gender dysphoria might be hard to say, but I know too many people for whom transitioning has been a very real solution to think it might be "hard to say" if it really did.

We should definitely reduce restrictive gender expectations, but I don't think that's going to completely eliminate gender dysphoria.

Re: It’s not Tourette’s but a new type of mass sociogenic illness

#550

Post by yamazakiwi » Wed, Dec 07, 2022, 12:02 AM UTC

rrrrrrrrrrrryan wrote: post #489

coding123 wrote: post #450

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Probably also, gay voice. I'm pretty sure a lot of young (not yet gay) men don't have that voice until later in life.

I was friends with a nurse who told a story about a gay man who went into surgery. He had a heavy, stereotypical gay accent. But when he initially woke up after the surgery it was gone, and as the anesthesia faded, the accent slowly came back. I'm sure it varies for each individual, but for at least some gay men, some portion of their accent might be an affectation (even if it's largely subconscious).

While a "gay accent" is subjective, let's stay on topic.

I don't know if I believe this story in full. An awake person is likely to showcase more linguistic characteristics vs a sedated person which would in turn sound less affectatious. It's hard to say, "Yes, Turntina slay!" when your groggier than a koala bear.

We don't know to what degree their voice "changed" but I find it more likely the story was slightly exaggerated to make the story appear more interesting.