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It’s not Tourette’s but a new type of mass sociogenic illness

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511–520 of 704 posts

Re: It’s not Tourette’s but a new type of mass sociogenic illness

#511
post #371

Stuff like this makes me wonder if taboo and stigma "evolved" in societies as defense against the spread of behavior that could cause a breakdown of social order. For example, if something like dancing mania[0] got out of hand, then important jobs could be left undone and people starve or whatever. So if the notion that such behavior is bad is drilled into everyone's mind before being exposed, then they are more like…

There's no need for convoluted explanations. A good taboo, understood as a restriction on certain kinds of behavior or speech at least in certain circumstances, exists to protect some good. It's the same reason (or one of the reasons) we partition our houses into rooms by purpose. Human flourishing requires certain limits, not letting it all hang out. The latter is more akin to the liberal notion of freedom understoo…

> There's no need for convoluted explanations.

I don't see how it's at all convoluted. If anything, it's too reductive.

Taboos, traditions, etc., don't need to exist because of a reason that's explicit. Sometimes, they do, but that doesn't explain the taboos that don't make obvious sense. A taboo can be more or less a form of "cultural neuron" that doesn't have an explicit purpose but incidentally changes the balance of the system towards something that society at a given time may benefit from without even knowing it. A religion featuring more ornate hats than others may have more true believers, or perhaps the other way around for all we know. If that's at least plausible, if not true, that wouldn't necessarily mean a reverend at one point decided to declare a certain kind of hat wearing because of the "good of the church."

The inverse can also be true. Take for instance the taboo of sexism. Makes sense, right? Given modern western principles, why should culture allow for discrimination based on sex? On the other hand, there's evidence that many women, regardless of their political positions, actually appreciate men who are "benevolently sexist." It's a phenomenon compelling enough that even Psychology Today, a publication heavily biased against anything unflattering to women, has reported on it more than once. By making sexism a taboo, and far more taboo as of late, society has raised the bar for just how confident a man has to be to attract a woman. We really don't need a study to demonstrate that, on average, women are attracted to confidence. An effect of making sexism taboo is it changes the signal to noise ratio, allowing women to better identify which men they'll actually be attracted to. Maybe there were some people arguing against sexism with this in mind, but I imagine they are an extreme minority. Most anti-sexists probably weren't thinking along those lines.

At least that taboo makes some reasonable sense in isolation, and even the fashion of religious garb can be made sense of, but what about a taboo that makes no sense? What about merely making a mouth-noise that comes out sounding like "shit?"

It makes little explicit sense that saying the word "shit" be a faux pas. You can say poop, doodie, scat, dung, and even crap, but shit is considered a curse word. It's really pretty stupid.

Except I would argue that having any form of taboo can have a positive effect, even if it barely makes sense. By having cultural limits of any kind, it puts the society on the same page and creates a mindset where individuals try to at least maintain some level of basic class as a mindset. Personally, I like saying the word shit, but adding virtually any variable to a chaotic system can have effects that weren't explicitly predicted.

Re: It’s not Tourette’s but a new type of mass sociogenic illness

#512
post #371

Stuff like this makes me wonder if taboo and stigma "evolved" in societies as defense against the spread of behavior that could cause a breakdown of social order. For example, if something like dancing mania[0] got out of hand, then important jobs could be left undone and people starve or whatever. So if the notion that such behavior is bad is drilled into everyone's mind before being exposed, then they are more like…

Oh yeah definitely. It's easier to just have a general learned feeling of a taboo than to have to explain to everyone the historical and societal consequences of it to every person. It's a learned behavior that helps perpetuate a higher survival rate not because the thing itself is bad if done a handful of times but because it can get out of hand and be done by the whole population.

[deleted]

Re: It’s not Tourette’s but a new type of mass sociogenic illness

#514
post #227

When I was in high school, one of the "popular" kids used to talk a bit odd on purpose and sure, it generated a bit of a chuckle at first, but he kept doing it and a lot of kids also adopted a similar vocal tic to seem like they were part of the cool group as well. Monkey see, monkey do.

The Mid-Atlantic accent, or Transatlantic accent, is a consciously learned accent of English, fashionably used by the late 19th-century and early 20th-century American upper class and entertainment industry, which blended together features regarded as the most prestigious from both American and British English (specifically Received Pronunciation). It is not a native or regional accent; rather, according to voice and…

Frasier, the TV character played by Kelsey Grammer, uses an exaggerated Mid-Atlantic accent.

Re: It’s not Tourette’s but a new type of mass sociogenic illness

#515
"they can be viewed as the 21st century expression of a culture-bound stress reaction of our post-modern society emphasizing the uniqueness of individuals and valuing their alleged exceptionality, thus promoting attention-seeking behaviours and aggravating the permanent identity crisis of modern man."

There is a tendency to reify aberrations and disorders and to identify with them because it gives you another way of attaining a feeling of (false) "uniqueness" and exceptionality, or a way of trying to manipulate people into showing you "compassion" or pity. It's a disease of our age. "The spectrum" seems to be a popular example. These are afflictions, not identities. They're nothing to be proud of when you have them, if you have them, nor are they things to be desired.

There may also be passive-aggressive motives. Personal autonomy and the absolute sovereignty of the individual and his desires are a superordinate value today. We chafe under any perceived constraint or restraint on our desires. What do some people do when they don't want to follow some rule they should, but fear opposing that rule overtly? They rebel through small, passive-aggressive ways. Imagine now you are faced with the internalized emotional compulsion or fear to behave or not behave a certain way that you don't want to submit to, but fear opposing or ignoring for whatever reason. Simulating tics could be an interior rebellion against that undesired compulsion. Repeat something often enough, and it becomes a habit.

(Curiously, I would attribute the very cause of this inner struggle to our disordered attitude toward desire and appetite in the first place where the tail is essentially wagging the dog. Putting reason before desire and submitting to the truth liberates a person from the capricious tyranny of appetite.)

Re: It’s not Tourette’s but a new type of mass sociogenic illness

#516
post #360

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am just saying many of these things are subjective, and just because someone says "it's baggage" doesn't mean it is for everyone.

Please answer my question directly. Is it 'subjective' that many activities are segregated by gender in the West? If a person doesn't like that, how is it not a logical response to try to change their gender?

> Is it 'subjective' that many activities are segregated by gender in the West?

You're conflating sex and gender. If you used the two terms as others do there's no surprise.

Washrooms, in almost the entire world, are sex segregated. They aren't gender-segregated in the sense of transgender because they forbid all males and allow all females, or vice versa.

> If a person doesn't like that, how is it not a logical response to try to change their gender?

The washroom isn't actually gender segregated, it's sex segregated and you can't change sex. The words you're using are chosen to subtly obscure the situation.

> So you're telling me that a boy who identifies as a boy is fine to change with the girls at PE and do their activities? OR is there 'baggage' to being a boy in this scenario?

It sure feels like there's baggage to being a girl - being an object for you to shower next to, not a person with their own privacy rights.

Re: It’s not Tourette’s but a new type of mass sociogenic illness

#517
post #401

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yup. I just say fuck and shake my head. Apparently this is rather normal behavior...

According to who? I have the same issue and it's annoying.

Yes, according to WHO. https://www.who.int/publications/i/item/9789240003927

Re: It’s not Tourette’s but a new type of mass sociogenic illness

#518

From my reading of the article (which is hard to parse not being an expert) it seems there is a German YouTuber with Tourette's who also on his YouTube shows displays non-tourette's tics. And these tics are being copied by other young people watching his shows, and being presented as Tourette's until they arrive at the clinic where these experts go "hang on this kid does not have Tourette's but does have tics similar…

It sounds like these people simply learned the symptoms of a psychiatric condition and used that knowledge for personal gain.

> patients often reported to be unable to perform unpleasant tasks because of their symptoms

> resulting in release from obligations at school and home

> symptoms temporarily completely disappear while conducting favourite activities

This is a textbook example of secondary gain.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Primary_and_secondary_gain

> So, the weird thing is not they pick up someone else's tics but they cannot get rid of them.

In some cases they did get rid of them after the ruse was discovered and no longer served any purpose.

> in some patients, a rapid and complete remission occurred after exclusion of the diagnosis of Tourette syndrome

Re: It’s not Tourette’s but a new type of mass sociogenic illness

#519
post #330

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>then this opens new doors to examining the behaviour of other illnesses such as gender dysphoria that are statistically over represented. Don't fall into the trap of assuming that 1950's Western norms are a 'baseline.' History shows us that almost all expressions of gender are fluid. The idea of "men and women need to be segregated in certain places (particularly when nude) and must dress differently' is likely the…

> The idea of "men and women need to be segregated in certain places (particularly when nude) and must dress differently' is likely the cause of how prevalent transgender people have become. Have you ever been a parent? Because males and females are different, and the sexual pressures on them are immensely different too, for both social and physical reasons. Similarly, sexual risk (to anyone, but especially children)…

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Re: It’s not Tourette’s but a new type of mass sociogenic illness

#520
post #353

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> ... and must dress differently Operating based on a sampling of women I know - Im going to perform an experiment - I have some clothes of mine that I (Male with a capital M) no longer wear and Im going to give them to some Female friends for their own use. We'll see what happens but I bet Im going to be met with confusing expressions and laughed at - at best. Men and women do not dress differently on the count of s…

>Operating based on a sampling of women I know How big and diverse is that sample? >You can slice it 6 different ways but outside of a small minority How small is that minority? >the vast majority of women want to "be pretty" Are you implying that there's an objective idea of 'pretty' as it relates to fashion? That a woman in pants can't be 'pretty'? Can I point you to powerful men in high-heeled shoes in the 10th Ce…

> > History shows us that almost all expressions of gender are fluid

> Again, are high heels for boys or girls? History's opinion will surprise you!

If transgenderism were only changing fashion trends it wouldn't involve psychiatric or surgical interventions and transition wouldn't be called life-saving, etc.

> Or are you implying that it's fine for men to dress in women's clothes? Because if so then why are we here?

Are you implying that men in women's clothes are just men in women's clothes? Because then yeah, why are we here?

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