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It’s not Tourette’s but a new type of mass sociogenic illness

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Re: It’s not Tourette’s but a new type of mass sociogenic illness

#391

Post by boole1854 »

albert_e wrote: post #121
indigochill wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There may be a relation to military conditioning. I spent just a single week at a military academy introductory program in high school and when I returned home I was "uncontrollably" (if I thought about it I could avoid doing it, but if I was on autopilot it happened by itself) squaring my corners and calling my family "sir" and "ma'am". The thing was, those patterns were my entire life for that week, and they were v…

I read about "mirror neurons" where humans watching others do physical activity also have some of the same neural pathways fire. (V. S. RAMACHANDRAN) The author/researcher says he believes that is one of the main mechanisms of human learning (babies look at adults and imitate. Adults look at other adults and imitate. Subconsciously) What you are describing sounds very similar.

When I was raising my first child, I discovered a strange, apparently innate instinct which presumably is related to the mirror neurons:

At some point the child gets old enough that you start to feed them 'baby food' on a spoon. The child isn't used to eating off of a spoon so for many weeks the process is messy. The initial challenge is getting them to open their mouth wide enough for the spoon to enter. And telling them 'open your mouth' is not particularly useful since they don't understand English at that age.

Instead, the following instinct kicks in: as you approach their mouth with the spoon, your own mouth opens. They see your mouth open and then open theirs. The crazy part is that your own mouth opening happens involuntarily at the moment you want their mouth to open. It is physically difficult to suppress it, even if you try.

I've also noticed the reverse. When the child gets a little older, they at some point want you to open your mouth, because they want to feed you something or they are curious about the inside of your mouth (this is a phase they go through). They seem to also involuntarily open their mouth wide when they want you to open yours.

Re: It’s not Tourette’s but a new type of mass sociogenic illness

#392

Post by rjbwork »

kneebonian wrote: post #375
lisper wrote: post #355

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's plausible [1] [2]. I am by all accounts neurotypical (except perhaps for a touch of Aspergers) but I have an involuntary tic. Every now and then (like once or twice a week) a memory of some incredibly stupid thing that I once did -- sometimes decades ago -- will pop into my head and before I can re-establish conscious control I'll make a vocalization that sounds like a cross between a whimper and a sneeze. It's…

I have this happen to I've always assumed it was an anxiety response. The interesting things is I am able to control it to some extent, I used to hit myself, now I mutter profanities. Anyone else do something like this?

Yup. I just say fuck and shake my head. Apparently this is rather normal behavior...

Re: It’s not Tourette’s but a new type of mass sociogenic illness

#393

Post by CognitiveLens »

labster wrote: post #379
elliottkember wrote: post #351

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In behavioural psychology the antonym is "punish". There are positive/negative axes (whether a stimulus is added or removed) and reinforcement/punishment axes (whether the consequence is desired). Negative reinforcement is what boot camp uses. If you square your corners, you won't get shouted at. The "negative" aspect relates to the lack of shouting, and the reinforcement relates to the fact that the shouting is unpl…

I think GP meant deinforce to be a complimentary antonym, where you gave the gradable antonym.

@elliottkember is giving the correct complimentary antonym to "reinforce" in behavioral psych - "punishment" reduces the frequency of a behavior, "reinforcement" increases the frequency. There's a spectrum, but the terms only refer to the opposing effects on behavior rates. In the GP's comment, "deinforcement" appears to also mean "actively reducing the frequency of the behavior".

Re: It’s not Tourette’s but a new type of mass sociogenic illness

#394

Post by vinegarden »

Kye wrote: post #234
maxbond wrote: post #163

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I understand these are not the words you used, or necessarily ideas you hold; what I am describing is the role it plays in the wider rhetorical space. I should have made that more clear, it does look like I was calling you out for that. I'll see if I can edit it in a better way. Recommending literature is a skill I am still working on; I know things about this or that, but I didn't keep a record of how I learned them…

It's honestly enough to remember and point out the whole concept is based on a study that only polled parents who aren't supportive of their trans kids. Anyone with a shred of genuine interest in being fair and accurate should be able to see right through the study. It's so bad that even prominent transphobes don't seem to talk about it anymore.

ROGD is the term given to the phenomenon of teenagers with no history of gender dysphoria suddenly announcing a transgender identity, typically after spending massive amounts of time online, and often after a friend has announced that they are trans. Who would be better placed to notice this set of circumstances than their parents?

Re: It’s not Tourette’s but a new type of mass sociogenic illness

#395

Post by screye »

I wonder how similar this is to (sexy baby) valley girl upspeak & vocal fry.

Many young women picked this up from the Kardashians/Paris Hilton and now cannot "turn it off". We know this is not their 'natural' voice because if you ask them to make weird sounds and then a normal voice, then their normal voice sounds completely different than the sexy baby voice.

The weird thing is that the women themselves are surprised by this sound they're hearing and cannot easily reproduce it because the sexy baby voice is so deeply internalized.

Sounds rather similar to these involutory ticks.

Re: It’s not Tourette’s but a new type of mass sociogenic illness

#396

Post by snapcaster »

lisper wrote: post #355
lifeisstillgood wrote: post #34

From my reading of the article (which is hard to parse not being an expert) it seems there is a German YouTuber with Tourette's who also on his YouTube shows displays non-tourette's tics. And these tics are being copied by other young people watching his shows, and being presented as Tourette's until they arrive at the clinic where these experts go "hang on this kid does not have Tourette's but does have tics similar…

It's plausible [1] [2]. I am by all accounts neurotypical (except perhaps for a touch of Aspergers) but I have an involuntary tic. Every now and then (like once or twice a week) a memory of some incredibly stupid thing that I once did -- sometimes decades ago -- will pop into my head and before I can re-establish conscious control I'll make a vocalization that sounds like a cross between a whimper and a sneeze. It's…

Holy shit, I thought this only happened to me. Hey fellow weirdo! Glad to know i'm not alone

Re: It’s not Tourette’s but a new type of mass sociogenic illness

#397

Post by [deleted] »

kneebonian wrote: post #375
lisper wrote: post #355

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's plausible [1] [2]. I am by all accounts neurotypical (except perhaps for a touch of Aspergers) but I have an involuntary tic. Every now and then (like once or twice a week) a memory of some incredibly stupid thing that I once did -- sometimes decades ago -- will pop into my head and before I can re-establish conscious control I'll make a vocalization that sounds like a cross between a whimper and a sneeze. It's…

I have this happen to I've always assumed it was an anxiety response. The interesting things is I am able to control it to some extent, I used to hit myself, now I mutter profanities. Anyone else do something like this?

[deleted]

Re: It’s not Tourette’s but a new type of mass sociogenic illness

#398

Post by screye »

pjc50 wrote: post #142

(content warning) It's not commonly discussed, but suicide seems to be a "sociogenic illness" in that reporting on suicides as such can cause more suicides. You may have noticed this in the reporting on celebrity deaths; a young person who "dies suddenly" may be suicide, but news reports will tend to avoid saying that out of concern for the sociogenic effects.

I have anecdotally noticed this too.

My university went 6 years without a suicide, and then had 3 highly publicized suicides over the year. They then put in a lot of effort to bury it as much as possible, students went home for the summer, and the university had a few suicide-free years right after

Re: It’s not Tourette’s but a new type of mass sociogenic illness

#399

Post by f38zf5vdt »

zozbot234 wrote: post #390
f38zf5vdt wrote: post #382

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The number of individuals failing to follow up on a study or even treatment for any disease at the same medical office is high, for example it's approximately 50% for _cancer_. [1] You're welcome to extrapolate to your own taste, but it's still simply an unknown -- unlike the people you _do_ have data for. https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/29028642/

But the whole question is why people are desisting from treatment that's supposed to help them reaffirm their gender. Everyone knows that cancer treatment has very uncomfortable side effects; it's not surprising that people might neglect that. Gender treatment is literally supposed to make you feel good, by treating disphoria.

Lost to follow up is not necessarily discontinuation of treatment is the issue. The person may have moved out of state or out of country, or simply have moved to be treated by a different physician. Consider also the perspective of the detransitioning person: in trying to reconcile their experience, they project that there must be more people out there like themselves and point to a known unknown to justify it.

Re: It’s not Tourette’s but a new type of mass sociogenic illness

#400

Post by mrguyorama »

tedunangst wrote: post #368
bowsamic wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you can't voluntarily stop it and it's causing negative effects to your quality of life then why can't it be called an illness? These people aren't going to get professional help just for the fun of it

> Third, patients often reported to be unable to perform unpleasant tasks because of their symptoms resulting in release from obligations at school and home, while symptoms temporarily completely disappear while conducting favourite activities.

That makes no comment about whether the symptoms are on purpose, or unconscious. Ask any ADHD or OCD person about "symptoms that arise around unpleasant tasks"
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