It’s not Tourette’s but a new type of mass sociogenic illness • Hacker News Board

Re: It’s not Tourette’s but a new type of mass sociogenic illness

#331

Post by maxbond » Tue, Dec 06, 2022, 6:27 PM UTC

dragonwriter wrote: post #327

maxbond wrote: post #326

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're conflating heterosexuality and heteronormativity. You could have a society where heterosexuality is prevalent, without having heteronormativity. Heteronormativity encompasses both heterosexuality and a specific set of gender roles for men and women; so it is not enough for heterosexuality to be prevalent. You need to conflate these genders with heterosexuality, prescribe them, and marginalize sexual and gender…

> Heteronormativity encompasses both heterosexuality and a specific set of gender roles for men and women Heteronormativity is just heterosexuality as a normative element of social structures (not merely prevalent in society, but where deviation from it is viewed as transgressive.) In modern societies, it is typically tied to patriarchy (a particular normatige structure of gender roles, in which social power is attac…

Hmm, pardon, where is it we differ? The word "just" makes me think this is a correction, but I agree with all of that, and I feel like if you that if you take all of that to be true, you get the sentence of mine you've quoted.

Re: It’s not Tourette’s but a new type of mass sociogenic illness

#332

Post by dragonwriter » Tue, Dec 06, 2022, 6:35 PM UTC

maxbond wrote: post #331

dragonwriter wrote: post #327

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Heteronormativity encompasses both heterosexuality and a specific set of gender roles for men and women Heteronormativity is just heterosexuality as a normative element of social structures (not merely prevalent in society, but where deviation from it is viewed as transgressive.) In modern societies, it is typically tied to patriarchy (a particular normatige structure of gender roles, in which social power is attac…

Hmm, pardon, where is it we differ? The word "just" makes me think this is a correction, but I agree with all of that, and I feel like if you that if you take all of that to be true, you get the sentence of mine you've quoted.

I don’t see it as a strong disagreement, but there is a slight but sometimes important difference between heteronormativity including, e.g., cisnormativity and patriarchy, versus heteronormativity being distinct from them but frequently co-occurring with them.

But we certainly agree that heteronormativity is different than society having a majority heterosexual orientation.

Re: It’s not Tourette’s but a new type of mass sociogenic illness

#333

Post by xd » Tue, Dec 06, 2022, 6:36 PM UTC

jasonlotito wrote: post #310

dahfizz wrote: post #246

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Read bognition's comment. They literally say that kids are "empowered to explore their sexuality".

This comment is a lie. They literally do not say "kids are empowered to explore their sexuality." Kids grow up into adults. xd is the one that brought up sexualizing children. No reasonable person here would assume anyone is talking about sexualizing children unless they explicitly said as much. Somehow you and xd are thinking "people are feeling empowered to explore their sexuality" explicitly means "kids" in this c…

"For the last several decades society put massive pressure on kids to conform to heteronormativity. With these pressures lessening more and more people are feeling empowered to explore their sexuality."

He talks about society putting pressure on kids to be straight and then talks about people and sexuality in the same damn paragraph; are you being purposefully obtuse?

Re: It’s not Tourette’s but a new type of mass sociogenic illness

#334

Post by zozbot234 » Tue, Dec 06, 2022, 6:38 PM UTC

maxbond wrote: post #326

zozbot234 wrote: post #322

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Heterosexuality being prevalent within the population (note that I purposefully avoid idioms like "X is the norm" as ambiguous, especially in this context) is merely the flip side of LGBTQIA+ folks being a minority. Now, a minority can have a robust subculture - and one can certainly make that claim about LGBTQ identity today - but that doesn't somehow make it into not-a-minority. Social and cultural norms are beside…

You're conflating heterosexuality and heteronormativity. You could have a society where heterosexuality is prevalent, without having heteronormativity. Heteronormativity encompasses both heterosexuality and a specific set of gender roles for men and women; so it is not enough for heterosexuality to be prevalent. You need to conflate these genders with heterosexuality, prescribe them, and marginalize sexual and gender…

> you need look no further than the comment I criticized. It doesn't say, heterosexuality is prevalent; it says, heterosexuality is total

That comment actually said "heterosexuality is normal", which is of course ambiguous - it could mean either of "prevalent" or "not merely prevalent but standard, with deviations from it being seen as undesirable". Heteronormativity might be a description of the latter claim, but to deny that heterosexuality is especially common would be mere wishful thinking.

The claim that gender and sexual orientation are linked would've been quite recognizable to ancient cultures including classical Greece and Rome, where heterosexual behavior was not normative and other sexual arrangements were often celebrated (though their dark, exploitive side, linked to the ubiquity of rape culture as purposeful male domination, was not unrecognized either; and this later fed into Christian condemnation of such practices). So it makes little sense to view that as "heteronormative" either.

Re: It’s not Tourette’s but a new type of mass sociogenic illness

#335

Post by maxbond » Tue, Dec 06, 2022, 6:40 PM UTC

dragonwriter wrote: post #332

maxbond wrote: post #331

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hmm, pardon, where is it we differ? The word "just" makes me think this is a correction, but I agree with all of that, and I feel like if you that if you take all of that to be true, you get the sentence of mine you've quoted.

I don’t see it as a strong disagreement, but there is a slight but sometimes important difference between heteronormativity including , e.g., cisnormativity and patriarchy, versus heteronormativity being distinct from them but frequently co-occurring with them. But we certainly agree that heteronormativity is different than society having a majority heterosexual orientation.

For sure, I can see how I elided some concepts there; I think my definition was appropriate to the context of this conversation, but I appreciate you keeping me honest.

Re: It’s not Tourette’s but a new type of mass sociogenic illness

#336

Post by Broken_Hippo » Tue, Dec 06, 2022, 6:40 PM UTC

xd wrote: post #85

bognition wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Counter hypothesis. For the last several decades society put massive pressure on kids to conform to heteronormativity. With these pressures lessening more and more people are feeling empowered to explore their sexuality. Social media is absolutely involved, but we really don't know what the base rate would be in a society devoid of this kind of pressure.

As a parent I have no idea what you are trying to say with this idea of pushing "heteronormativity" - I don't and don't know any parents that push anything sexual let alone encouraging kids to explore sexuality .. they are kids and will be kids until they mature and begin to feel the urge to explore. This normalising of sexualising of children is abhorrent. Edit: the voting on this comment is crazy.. the number of HN…

I don't and don't know any parents that push anything sexual let alone encouraging kids to explore sexuality

I definitely learned before age 13 that being gay/lesbian was bad (I'm bisexual and in my mid 40s). I definitely learned that I was expected to grow up and get married and have kids and if I worked, it was really to help the spouse. I remember my parents suddenly getting upset that I had male friends and didn't want me spending time with them the same way (this was around age 10). No one talked to me about attraction and if they did, never explained that I might feel that way about women as well as men. This is what heteronormativity is. This is pushing sexual preferences on youth.

Exploring sexuality isn't about actual sex acts, but more about learning who you are and who you are attracted to. You know, the sorts of folks you'd like to date and eventually, the sorts of folks you want to spend your life with. This sort of thing is most definitely encouraged, but sometimes the only acceptable option presented is the hetronormativity - you know, "biblical" monogamous relationships that produce children, and if you are female and don't want children, you are broken.

This isn't sexualisation of children.

Re: It’s not Tourette’s but a new type of mass sociogenic illness

#337

Post by claudiawerner » Tue, Dec 06, 2022, 6:41 PM UTC

ccity88 wrote: post #33

What's interesting to me is that if we're able to accept the idea that mass social media-induced illness can be developed just by virtue of video watching TikTok or YouTube, then this opens new doors to examining the behaviour of other illnesses such as gender dysphoria that are statistically over represented. This is probably going to get downvoted to oblivion, because nobody wants to confront the idea that we can _…

>This is probably going to get downvoted to oblivion, because nobody wants to confront the idea that we can _learn_ to want to be another gender.

Did you really think this was going to be downvoted on Hacker News of all places?

Re: It’s not Tourette’s but a new type of mass sociogenic illness

#338

Post by Karawebnetwork » Tue, Dec 06, 2022, 6:42 PM UTC

ccity88 wrote: post #33

What's interesting to me is that if we're able to accept the idea that mass social media-induced illness can be developed just by virtue of video watching TikTok or YouTube, then this opens new doors to examining the behaviour of other illnesses such as gender dysphoria that are statistically over represented. This is probably going to get downvoted to oblivion, because nobody wants to confront the idea that we can _…

According to Gallup's poll in early 2022, which they present as estimates, 0.7% of the US population is trans. In India, 0.6% people self-identified as hijra (Sahastrabuddhe et al., 2012). In the 2011 census in India, 0.04% answered with "Other" when asked to choose between "Male", "Female" and "Other".

Canada included the question in their latest census and the result was 0.2%. In my opinion, a mandatory government census provides data that is more accurate than Gallup's phone poll.

"The proportions of transgender and non-binary people were three to seven times higher for Generation Z (born between 1997 and 2006, 0.79%) and millennials (born between 1981 and 1996, 0.51%) than for Generation X (born between 1966 and 1980, 0.19%), baby boomers (born between 1946 and 1965, 0.15%) and the Interwar and Greatest Generations (born in 1945 or earlier, 0.12%)."

Canada's government also adds this under their data comparability section: "Belgium (0.5% among people aged 18 to 75 in 2021) and New Zealand (0.5% among people aged 18 and older in 2020) have also published representative survey-based data on their transgender populations.

Other countries have published 2021 data on transgender people using crowdsourcing and non-representative surveys, including Ireland (0.6% among people aged 18 and older), England and Wales (0.6% among people aged 16 and older), and the United States (0.8% among people aged 18 and older)."

Being transgender is not a mental disorder or illness, but rather a natural variation of human diversity. Everyone has the right to express their gender identity in a way that is authentic and comfortable for them. I fail to see how the topic of a mass social media-induced illness applies here.

Re: It’s not Tourette’s but a new type of mass sociogenic illness

#339

Post by theGnuMe » Tue, Dec 06, 2022, 6:43 PM UTC

There's a new Netflix series called Hot Skull around this theme. I haven't watched it yet but it looks like the premise is that a word virus infects people and they start talking gibberish.

Re: It’s not Tourette’s but a new type of mass sociogenic illness

#340

Post by f38zf5vdt » Tue, Dec 06, 2022, 6:44 PM UTC

zozbot234 wrote: post #283

class4behavior wrote: post #262

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Parent might be falsely inferring an over-representation of GD from the statistical discrepancy between younger and older age groups of those who identify as LGTBQ+.

IIRC, research also shows that those who identify as trans in middle age are much more likely to be happy when they do choose to transition, compared to the younger folks.

I don't see anything to support this in the literature. The overwhelming majority (94-98%) of youth who transition maintain their gender identity many years later as adults. [1][2] It's hard to imagine they would continue treatment if it was making them miserable.

[1] https://www.pbs.org/newshour/nation/transgender-kids-tend-to...

[2] https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lanchi/article/PIIS2352-4...