Remote work is gutting downtowns • Hacker News Board

Re: Remote work is gutting downtowns

#191

Post by smileysteve » Tue, Dec 06, 2022, 5:30 PM UTC

snapplebobapple wrote: post #103

MengerSponge wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've had funny conversations about why I still wear a good n95 on public transit (planes included). My right-leaning and remarkably well educated parents are incredulous. A few years ago I thought personal masking didn't really matter. Wow, I was wrong! And not catching bs colds from weirdos on the bus or the grocery store makes it worth it. My face isn't that pretty anyway.

They might be right about the actual plane ride because the filtration systems on modern (read 20 years old or newer) are really good. Public busses tend to be a disaster for air filtration though, especially in winter when no windows are open. I wish there was some better research/more accessible research on this.

anecdotally, this is marketing bs / wishful thinking.

I've been on a handful of flights in the last 2 years where the air system didn't work at all, and others where the climate control system was otherwise failing (80°F). This is accentuated by stale air when you embark and disembark when the aux generators aren't providing power.

Re: Remote work is gutting downtowns

#192

Post by rd » Tue, Dec 06, 2022, 5:37 PM UTC

thatfrenchguy wrote: post #163

rbanffy wrote: post #111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Living in the city is great for young people who have no kids - lots of entertainment options a short walk away. It's noisier/busier/dirtier (EVs will help A LOT with noise and pollution). Living further out is much nicer when you have kids - more space, more freedom for the kids to move around, more trees for them to climb and places to explore.

And nowhere for them to go by themselves? Living in the suburbs as a tween/teenager is death.

Honestly, incredibly untrue. Everyone adapts. I grew up in a suburb-y suburb (northern virginia) 4-5 years ago. You bike to the local community center with your friends, you drive once you're 15 back from school, to the movies, to the basketball court. The real benefit is in actually being in proper nature. My backyard had trees, and miles of walking trails, and ponds to fish in just a 5 minute walk from my front door. You can't find that in the middle of NYC. Living in a 'real' suburb is far, far better than living in a city as a tween/teenager.

Re: Remote work is gutting downtowns

#193

Post by fundad » Tue, Dec 06, 2022, 5:38 PM UTC

clcaev wrote: post #162

ahelwer wrote: post #116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yep. I went from being sick roughly one week out of every 1-2 months before covid to only getting sick maybe once a year now that I mask in public places, thoroughly wash my hands with soap every time I arrive somewhere, and occasionally wash my phone. Never going back. This whole "train your immune system" thing is BS. Hygiene is important!

I muse to myself, without a shred of evidence, that masks do "train your immune system". Since they are no where near perfect, pathogens do make it though. However, the "initial viral load" is much smaller, giving your body more time to mount an effective defense. So, I would like to believe you are not neglecting your immune system by masking. Rather, by not overloading it, just being less sick than the unmasked, on…

I want to carry you on my shoulders among a cheering crowd.

Re: Remote work is gutting downtowns

#194

Post by rsync » Tue, Dec 06, 2022, 5:38 PM UTC

brookst wrote: post #155

ethagknight wrote: post #136

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I work in the adaptive reuse industry converting history office buildings into hotels or apartments. We've looked at a number of modern era office towers, and housing is simply not viable. To your point though.. ironically, urban factories and warehousing seems to me to be the best use. Can you build a small electric vehicle or iPhones with the assembly line going from top to bottom? Banks are already there for unloa…

Super interested in your industry! What makes conversion of office towers to housing not viable? It's easy for me to imagine a lot of objections to converting one building, but hard to imagine insurmountable difficulties in converting 1000, where you can amortize R&D and specialized equipment across a huge number of properties. So, if you don't mind humoring me, can you sketch the worst / most expensive / most techni…

If you search for it you will find a fairly recent episode of KQED "forum" that discussed this topic for a full hour.

Re: Remote work is gutting downtowns

#195

Post by zamalek » Tue, Dec 06, 2022, 5:40 PM UTC

MengerSponge wrote: post #67

highwaylights wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I used to get the bus to work about 10 years ago because parking in the city became so expensive (I stopped long before Covid hit). The thing I don't miss is that I got sick every single Winter. All it takes is one inconsiderate person to not cover their mouth and everyone is getting ill. And it happened all the time . I had a commute time that ranged between one and two hours over that stretch as I'd lived in a coup…

I've had funny conversations about why I still wear a good n95 on public transit (planes included). My right-leaning and remarkably well educated parents are incredulous. A few years ago I thought personal masking didn't really matter. Wow, I was wrong! And not catching bs colds from weirdos on the bus or the grocery store makes it worth it. My face isn't that pretty anyway.

> A few years ago I thought personal masking didn't really matter.

I have always looked at Japan as a mixed bag of things that the entire planet will be doing in 10-100 years (yes, even sex bots and other forms of liberal individualism). I am so glad that at least parts of the west have caught onto the practice of masking up when sick, if there were ever a silver lining from the pandemic.

I'm still looking for a solution to the mask straps biting into my ears on planes, but a few hours of discomfort is still way better than being sick when I get to/back from my destination.

Re: Remote work is gutting downtowns

#196

Post by standardUser » Tue, Dec 06, 2022, 5:53 PM UTC

liminal wrote: post #56

I'm continually surprised by the resiliency of the urban housing real estate market given the remote work transition. Why pay such a huge premium to sit at home? I understand wanting to be where the action is, but e.g. the New York rental market just seems insane.

People pay to live in urban centers to not sit at home. They're there for that aforementioned action! But on a more practical level, a lot of people enjoy being able to walk to the gym, supermarket, cafes, restaurants, etc and when working from home you get to utilize that luxury even more often. My days are often littered with short-to-medium walks

Re: Remote work is gutting downtowns

#197

Post by seydor » Tue, Dec 06, 2022, 5:54 PM UTC

Rovanion wrote: post #12

osigurdson wrote: post #7

So, what is the solution? Force everyone back into the pointless office at enormous cost to employees and employers just to keep the status quo for landlords. The bottom line is downtown is a place where people work with information. Since it is possible to work with information anywhere, this place isn't needed (and hasn't been for a long time). Downtown obsolete.

Walkable cities with mixed use development. Change the use of downtown.

change use of the suburbs?

Re: Remote work is gutting downtowns

#198

Post by polski-g » Tue, Dec 06, 2022, 6:03 PM UTC

Cities now compete for people, instead of corporations. This is a net positive.

If cities want to do civilizational-destroying activities like not prosecuting shoplifting or eliminating cash bail, then they can suffer the consequences of not having any residential tax revenue.

Re: Remote work is gutting downtowns

#199

Post by genocidicbunny » Tue, Dec 06, 2022, 6:06 PM UTC

ar_lan wrote: post #178

wildrhythms wrote: post #3

These seeds were sowed when cities cashed in on commercial real estate, pushing residential zoning further and further out of the city. Wake up call: nobody wants to spend longer than they have to on an unpaid, unpredictable commute into the city anymore. So while these downtown businesses are getting 1/3 of the foot traffic that they used to, all the supermarkets and shops a few miles down the road are raking it in.

Living in the Bay Area, I really can't afford to live close to my office. I have to drive to Palo Alto from San Jose (or take the train). Pre-pandemic, my drive averaged 1hr to the office, and 1.5hrs back. So, I'm wasting 2.5 hrs of my life every day... to do the same exact job I do from home (not to mention cost of gas/car maintenance). I also get more done at home, because I haven't reduced my hours any, but I don'…

For a while, I used to commute from Santa Cruz to north San Jose for work. Since then, I absolutely factor my commute into my compensation, and anything more than an hour total commute per day is an additional premium. Factor in how terrible driving has become in the bay area, and I'm of half a mind to begin asking for hazard pay for commuting.

Re: Remote work is gutting downtowns

#200

Post by PraetorianGourd » Tue, Dec 06, 2022, 6:07 PM UTC

brookst wrote: post #155

ethagknight wrote: post #136

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I work in the adaptive reuse industry converting history office buildings into hotels or apartments. We've looked at a number of modern era office towers, and housing is simply not viable. To your point though.. ironically, urban factories and warehousing seems to me to be the best use. Can you build a small electric vehicle or iPhones with the assembly line going from top to bottom? Banks are already there for unloa…

Super interested in your industry! What makes conversion of office towers to housing not viable? It's easy for me to imagine a lot of objections to converting one building, but hard to imagine insurmountable difficulties in converting 1000, where you can amortize R&D and specialized equipment across a huge number of properties. So, if you don't mind humoring me, can you sketch the worst / most expensive / most techni…

Think of the layout of a modern office tower. Nearly open floor plans, one or two multi-user bathrooms per floor, one or two kitchenettes per floor. Designs optimized for ingress and egress via a single path. Sound abatement is minimal. Support columns are in the open.

So at minimum, you would need to plumb and power each "apartment" which would require essentially a complete replacement of the plumbing in place, as well as the electricity. And since the units are distinct, you would need to meter and isolate each unit. You would need to ensure that each "apartment" had a reasonable exit for fire safety reasons. You are restricted by architectural/engineering decisions that were based on an open layout (aforementioned supports).

Think of it this way, have you ever seen the progress as a tower is built? Isn't it remarkable how the "shell" or exterior seems to get finished in a blink, but the rest of the "innards" take 4 or 5 times as long to finish? In this case, most of the "innards" would need to be re-worked. Huge capital investment with unclear returns (nobody wants to live among the blight that a lot of west coast city centers are seeing).