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Remote work is gutting downtowns

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Re: Remote work is gutting downtowns

#171

Post by mantas »

reset-password wrote: post #4
wildrhythms wrote: post #3

These seeds were sowed when cities cashed in on commercial real estate, pushing residential zoning further and further out of the city. Wake up call: nobody wants to spend longer than they have to on an unpaid, unpredictable commute into the city anymore. So while these downtown businesses are getting 1/3 of the foot traffic that they used to, all the supermarkets and shops a few miles down the road are raking it in.

Right. The value has not been lost. It has been shifted. It happens.

It depends on how you count value.

Let's say you work from home and make your lunch. Previously you'd buy ready-to-eat lunch. While you still buy ingredients and pay for energy, you don't pay for someone to prepare it and then sell to you, prepare the housing of the eatery and so on. Effectively some GDP was lost. Next, let's say you grow some of your own veggies...

Re: Remote work is gutting downtowns

#172

Post by mantas »

thatfrenchguy wrote: post #163
rbanffy wrote: post #111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Living in the city is great for young people who have no kids - lots of entertainment options a short walk away. It's noisier/busier/dirtier (EVs will help A LOT with noise and pollution). Living further out is much nicer when you have kids - more space, more freedom for the kids to move around, more trees for them to climb and places to explore.

And nowhere for them to go by themselves? Living in the suburbs as a tween/teenager is death.

See:

> more space, more freedom for the kids to move around, more trees for them to climb and places to explore

Or „nowhere“ as in doing commercialized trendy stuff? Of course, when pop culture is pushing that lifestyle and people are glued to the screens, it ends up as a sad state of affairs.

Re: Remote work is gutting downtowns

#173

Post by [deleted] »

ryanbrunner wrote: post #143
tuyiown wrote: post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The thing I don't miss is that I got sick every single Winter. All it takes is one inconsiderate person to not cover their mouth and everyone is getting ill. And it happened all the time. Give it a few years without exposure, and you will have very hard time if you have to get exposed again. I did 2 years for remote work with a single day with long exposure each week, after a few years with low exposure. I then had…

Immune systems don't weaken from a lack of exposure. It's not a muscle that needs to be worked out. Besides which, your immune system is pretty much constantly at work with relatively benign foreign tissue regardless of whether you're wearing a mask or not. Some things like the uptick in RSV can be explained by children being initially exposed to RSV a bit later than usual, but for your average adult that's not reall…

[deleted]

Re: Remote work is gutting downtowns

#175

Post by sokoloff »

jghn wrote: post #134
snapplebobapple wrote: post #103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They might be right about the actual plane ride because the filtration systems on modern (read 20 years old or newer) are really good. Public busses tend to be a disaster for air filtration though, especially in winter when no windows are open. I wish there was some better research/more accessible research on this.

Even if the plane's filtration is good, if the person 3 feet away from you is coughing it's not going to be that good. I'd rather rely on the combination of filtration & a mask. Defense in depth. Day to day i'm not religious about masking, but for things like public transportation, airplanes, etc I try to always have face protection on.

Pressurized airplanes have air changes per hour in the 12-16 range. That's above the ASHRAE recommended 6-12 air changes per hour for places that may contain viruses. (Obviously, ASHRAE isn't the CDC or healthcare organization directly, but they do know a few things about standards setting for HVAC.) Excellent filtration isn't as relevant when the average air molecule is in the aircraft for only 5-10 minutes.

The standard for AC/H for offices is 3-4.

Re: Remote work is gutting downtowns

#176

Post by rbanffy »

jghn wrote: post #141
rbanffy wrote: post #111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Living in the city is great for young people who have no kids - lots of entertainment options a short walk away. It's noisier/busier/dirtier (EVs will help A LOT with noise and pollution). Living further out is much nicer when you have kids - more space, more freedom for the kids to move around, more trees for them to climb and places to explore.

Don't forget older people who have no kids. I'm part of a DINK couple and could not imagine leaving an urban area. There's so much more to do, so much easier to get around, etc.

Sorry. Didn't mean to.

I suspect we'll be in that space in about 10 years or so, when being next to a good hospital with excellent geriatric services will be more important than having trees to climb.

Re: Remote work is gutting downtowns

#177

Post by Ancalagon »

hobbitstan wrote: post #34

As a side note: the quality of life of pets has increased dramatically since the pandemic. With people working from home, they now have more company and less time spent locked in crates. That’s the reason I have for not returning to the office and will ensure I only do remote work from now on.

This is my reason for never going non-remote again as well.

Re: Remote work is gutting downtowns

#178

Post by ar_lan »

wildrhythms wrote: post #3

These seeds were sowed when cities cashed in on commercial real estate, pushing residential zoning further and further out of the city. Wake up call: nobody wants to spend longer than they have to on an unpaid, unpredictable commute into the city anymore. So while these downtown businesses are getting 1/3 of the foot traffic that they used to, all the supermarkets and shops a few miles down the road are raking it in.

Living in the Bay Area, I really can't afford to live close to my office. I have to drive to Palo Alto from San Jose (or take the train).

Pre-pandemic, my drive averaged 1hr to the office, and 1.5hrs back. So, I'm wasting 2.5 hrs of my life every day... to do the same exact job I do from home (not to mention cost of gas/car maintenance).

I also get more done at home, because I haven't reduced my hours any, but I don't waste time in the break room grabbing coffee and chatting. I don't know what the overall data is, and if I'm just a productive outlier or if that's a general trend.

If I'm ever required to commute again, I 100% view it as a pay decrease.

Re: Remote work is gutting downtowns

#179

Post by ar_lan »

robertlagrant wrote: post #48
MSFT_Edging wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A place where people live.

I'm not from the US - what is downtown used for today?

I'm confused (and I'm from the US). People do live in downtown areas, so I'm not sure what the posters are getting at.

Re: Remote work is gutting downtowns

#180

Post by phil21 »

Certified wrote: post #52

I had a long talk with a Chicago born cab driver when visiting a few years back. He explained to me that Chicago used to be a conventional city where the businesses were downtown and residential was a donut around that. Traffic was congested into downtown in the mornings and out of downtown in the evenings. As the city grew and commutes into downtown from the suburbs worsened, the businesses started moving out of dow…

> Fast forward to today and the traffic patterns have reversed, with congestion out of downtown in the morning as people commute out towards the ring of businesses and into downtown in the evening where people now live.

Not really true in my experience, having been around here for going on 20 years.

If anything, businesses had been (pre-covid) moving suburban campuses to downtown locations over that time.

The commute into the city in the AM, and out at PM is still the worst. Although worse may not look like much of a difference many days if you're not from around here.

Patterns have certainly shifted some after covid, but not enough to flip the commute as described.

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