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It’s not Tourette’s but a new type of mass sociogenic illness

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Re: It’s not Tourette’s but a new type of mass sociogenic illness

#251

Imagine you start the same trend, but everyone tries for once to contribute something science wise original to society, so the problem is real, but the potential is greater. Now comes the part, were advertisers try to create sociogenic illnesses that spread theire product/brands information. We can also skip directly to the part, were we mourn the youtfull ideals of a idea, taken over by scammers.

There was the alcohol drinks company's WASSSUP ad campaign that ruined everyone's life for a while.

That still lives rent-free in my head, and comes out every once in a while.

Re: It’s not Tourette’s but a new type of mass sociogenic illness

#252
post #123

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And they are absolutely sure that you need a physical modification to adapt to a socially constructed norm. And at the same time they demand medical procedures while denying that it is a medical condition, whose treatment needs to be studied with scientific rigor. Instead they say the affected persons know their best treatment. Just imagine applying that same approach to addicts.

Is it? Transmedicalists (those who belive sex reassignment is a required goal) are a minority in trans communities and "truscum" was created as a derogatory term for this attitude indicating its unpopularity. If you mean puberty blockers for trans youth rather than sex reassignment, they have much more support because of their non-permanent nature. We let many teenagers make decisions about things like tattoos and pi…

I find it very concerning that anyone would attempt to present puberty blockers as "non-permanent". Extraordinary claims like that require extraordinary evidence.

Re: It’s not Tourette’s but a new type of mass sociogenic illness

#253
post #33

What's interesting to me is that if we're able to accept the idea that mass social media-induced illness can be developed just by virtue of video watching TikTok or YouTube, then this opens new doors to examining the behaviour of other illnesses such as gender dysphoria that are statistically over represented. This is probably going to get downvoted to oblivion, because nobody wants to confront the idea that we can _…

My partner of the last six years is trans. Your post doesn't strike me as hate speech, but what Hacker News commenters seem not to understand is that making overly general statements about entire groups of people can often lead to an oversimplified view of the situation (see what I did there).

Let's start with the assumption that people can and do learn to "want" to be a particular gender. I am not an anthropologist, but I feel like this is a pretty uncontroversial take, and is the mechanism for how cis-gendered people learn to follow the gender norms of the culture they find themselves in. This is the key difference between gender and sex. Gender norms seem to be a cultural universal, but the form those norms take is dependent on time and place.

What this means is that in any society there are two sets of behavioral norms, one for perceived men, and one for perceived women. If a person in this society has a strong preference about which set of norms they prefer, and if the set of norms they prefer doesn't line up with their sex, you have the potential for that person to identify with the other gender. The term "transgender" is new, but behaviors associated with the term go back as far as you care to look.

So you have this potential tension where a person might prefer the gender norms of the other sex, but you also have the fact that questioning norms of any kind in a society is always somewhat taboo. A few very dedicated people would live their lives as the other gender. Many more probably would have liked to if they were aware that it was an option, but were not (in other words, even questioning a social norm can be difficult if there isn't already public discussion about it).

So if the sudden perceived increase in trans people seems like a sociogenic disease to you, I can see how you might think that. I can also see how hurtful it is to many people to frame it in those terms. If we take a closer look at the linked paper, they hypothesize that one of the drivers of the tourettes-like disease is attention seeking behavior. Are there people who decide to transition ultimately because they believe they will get more attention? I'm sure some do. But thinking that is the motivation for most trans people is a very hurtful overgeneralization and is unhelpful because it is just wrong. The trans people that I am personally acquainted with don't want more attention. They want less of it. If you even glance at common discussion topics in trans discussion forums, you will see that there is a lot of discussion about "passing". Passing doesn't seem like attention-seeking behavior to me, it seems like the exact opposite.

Does social media have no role to play in explaining the increase in people who identify as trans? It probably does have some role there. But its only accelerating and amplifying trends that already existed. LGBT+ issues in general have been getting less and less taboo to talk about for the last several decades. The internet and communications technology more generally is exposing people to more cultures and norms. My hypothesis is that there were many preexisting people who were unsatisfied with the gender roles that they were expected to fulfill, and that growing acceptance and discussion of LGBT+ issues made them realize that there was no reason to keep putting up with them anymore.

Re: It’s not Tourette’s but a new type of mass sociogenic illness

#254

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I understand your point but I think witchcraft might not be the best example. If witchcraft started going viral, I would absolutely be tempted to give it a shot lol. Would not surprise me if I was not in the minority there

Sure. Adventurous or curious people might give something a try just for the hell of it. For some it will stick. For many it won't. This is what I find so exhausting about those who try to drum up some kind of controversy around gender identity. Assuming it is all just a fad, who cares? Where's the issue when people decide to switch their gender on a whim? It's their lives. People do all kinds of things on a whim. Adu…

> Where's the issue when people decide to switch their gender on a whim?

The issue, at least for me, starts when we give children drugs and surgeries to enable them to switch genders.

There's nothing wrong with little Timmy wanting to play with Barbies. He doesn't need hormone injections because of it.

Re: It’s not Tourette’s but a new type of mass sociogenic illness

#255

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I understand your point but I think witchcraft might not be the best example. If witchcraft started going viral, I would absolutely be tempted to give it a shot lol. Would not surprise me if I was not in the minority there

Sure. Adventurous or curious people might give something a try just for the hell of it. For some it will stick. For many it won't. This is what I find so exhausting about those who try to drum up some kind of controversy around gender identity. Assuming it is all just a fad, who cares? Where's the issue when people decide to switch their gender on a whim? It's their lives. People do all kinds of things on a whim. Adu…

> Even if they pursue medical intervention, it's only going to affect them at worst.

People are worried about their kids. People are scared and the media amplifies the most extreme voices. Establishing scientifically the effectiveness of medical interventions is difficult in the best of circumstances and most psychology is non-reproducible, so it's hard to know what to believe is best.

Re: It’s not Tourette’s but a new type of mass sociogenic illness

#256

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I get it that this stuff is confusing and can be hard to make sense of at first, but gender identity and sexuality are completely different things. Also I'm not accusing anyone of pushing this on their kids, rather, our society does it in massive doses. Watch most children's TV shows or movies and heteronormativity is abundant. For a pretty clean example of this check out the movie Up by Pixar. The first 10 minutes o…

> I get it that this stuff is confusing and can be hard to make sense of at first, but gender identity and sexuality are completely different things. Yeah, but the comment OP is responding to was explicitly about letting kids " explore their sexuality ".

> With these pressures lessening more and more people are feeling empowered to explore their sexuality.

Emphasis mine. The comment is not, in fact, about letting children explore their sexuality, but people. (When you consider the parent of that comment, that still does not add context implying that we're talking about kids.)

The only part of the comment which discusses children is this:

> For the last several decades society put massive pressure on kids to conform to heteronormativity.

To read this as sexualizing children is misunderstanding the term heteronormativity, but regardless, this is the behavior that is being criticized, not championed.

Re: It’s not Tourette’s but a new type of mass sociogenic illness

#257
post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Counter hypothesis. For the last several decades society put massive pressure on kids to conform to heteronormativity. With these pressures lessening more and more people are feeling empowered to explore their sexuality. Social media is absolutely involved, but we really don't know what the base rate would be in a society devoid of this kind of pressure.

As a parent I have no idea what you are trying to say with this idea of pushing "heteronormativity" - I don't and don't know any parents that push anything sexual let alone encouraging kids to explore sexuality .. they are kids and will be kids until they mature and begin to feel the urge to explore. This normalising of sexualising of children is abhorrent. Edit: the voting on this comment is crazy.. the number of HN…

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Re: It’s not Tourette’s but a new type of mass sociogenic illness

#258

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think it's a bit more complicated than that. As far as "all of history" goes, ancient Greece for example tolerated a particular kind of "homosexuality", but not one we should try and emulate - it matched neither of two conditions in "consenting adults", for example. While it's true that few if any societies other than "modern Western" would score as high as ours on Stonewall's diversity index, there were definitely…

You make a case that gender norms have changed over time, not that there were no gender norms in the past.

Indeed. But my argument is specifically that the norms around acceptable behaviour for a straight male have significantly narrowed from roughly the end of the 19th century to the 1960s.

Re: It’s not Tourette’s but a new type of mass sociogenic illness

#259
post #141
post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I appreciate your being willing to speak your mind without hiding behind vaguery. We can risk a karma hit together. You are referring to a myth called "Rapid-Onset Gender Dysphoria," which has been debunked. Gender identity is not a socially transmitted pathology. I don't believe you meant this in a hateful way, but let me explain what the problem is with this idea. This is sophistry about how LGBTQ people should rem…

This is an issue I'm somewhat concerned about. Let's first be clear that gender dysphoria is a real thing, and transitioning has been a very real solution for many people, and has helped people from depression, possibly suicidal, to a much happier state, and that's great. It's vital we don't lose that. At the same time, it's been politicised; there's a lot of conservative pushback claiming this isn't real, leading to…

its much more important to young girls to be accepted socially than it is to boys.

Re: It’s not Tourette’s but a new type of mass sociogenic illness

#260

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What boggles my mind is that people who adamantly claim that all gender behavior is socially constructed are the ones who are the first to denounce the idea that you can learn to want to be another gender.

I don't think that happens too often. The problem is that there are at least two different and often opposing currents in pro-trans movements. One is from the "gender is a social construct" post-modernist side, which views the very idea that people are either men or women with some suspicion, and leads to concepts such as gender fluidity, non-binary identities, and the idea that maybe young kids should not be gendere…

The question of how many people happen to genuinely be in the liminal space between male and female gender expression is very much an empirical matter, not about philosophy. In the real world, seemingly clear-cut binary distinctions and fuzzy, mysterious liminal phenomena are not opposed to one another; they can very much coexist.
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