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Drowning in AI Generated Garbage: the silent war we are fighting

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Re: Drowning in AI Generated Garbage: the silent war we are fighting

#421

Post by debesyla »

ren_engineer wrote: post #127
kneebonian wrote: post #125

Earlier quoted context omitted.

An interesting idea but really then aren't you just recreating reddit to an extent. The things people like or that are popular are upvoted because the voter agrees whereas what is unpopular gets down voted regardless of veracity because people like the way it sounds. Beyond that a once popular website or producer says or does something that offends the sensibilities of the internet crowd and then everyone goes and do…

>aren't you just recreating reddit to an extent there are tons of ways to prevent that by weighting votes and only taking a random sample. SEO is basically a war where SEOs find a way to exploit Google's algorithm and Google tries to respond. Backlinks were Google's original solution to keyword spam that made other search engines suck, they didn't expect people would create entire sites or pay other websites to send…

I guess a return of "don't show this page in my results" could work better: it removes the worst results and it's hard to fake, no influencer is going to pay to downvote 200 pages and if they do, it would be easy to see that same user downvoted everything everything at random, without even clicking trough to read.

Helps for both search users and the platform. Like a free moderation service. Why have an employee too check if these pages should be removed if a crowd of tracked users can do it.

I wonder where is my view wrong because I wonder why isn't there such system yet...

Re: Drowning in AI Generated Garbage: the silent war we are fighting

#422

Post by robocat »

mason55 wrote: post #165
toddmorey wrote: post #130

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So the interesting thing about these tools is that they don’t link to the sources or cite the sources but instead train on them to generate a new source. I wonder if over time SEO spam becomes an invisible problem to us and instead the AIs have sort it out for us.

> I wonder if over time SEO spam becomes an invisible problem to us and instead the AIs have sort it out for us There have been some good Twitter threads about this. Basically, this is the last generation of AI to be trained with inputs that were ~100% human. It probably won't take long until the bulk of the content online is generated by AI, at which point it will just be an AI feedback loop. Any new concept, idea,…

Except at present we can also train classifiers that recognise GPT output, so ingressed text should be able to be filtered.

https://huggingface.co/openai-detector/ detects GPT2, but it still detects ChatGPT snippets most of the time, even though the algorithm has been improved and the training set is presumably quite different.

That said, I did just generate a complete lie https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=33874757 using ChatGPT that scored 99.98% real on the detector, so adversaries can pre-filter too.

Also interesting is that historical corpora (every existing corpus) of data becomes more valuable, because they are untainted.

Re: Drowning in AI Generated Garbage: the silent war we are fighting

#423

Post by janalsncm »

ren_engineer wrote: post #117
Mountain_Skies wrote: post #15

In just the past couple of weeks, I've noticed lots of machine generated cooking recipes. They follow the typical SEO pandering blog format, where there's an unnecessary story about the author's trip somewhere or their child's school play being the inspiration for making this particular recipe, followed by the actual recipe details. The machine generated stories are even more pointless and meandering than what humans…

there's a paper that basically shows these LLMs are pretty much tapped out in terms of quality data to train on, not sure if there are any legit architecture improvements in the works to improve results quality but it seems brute force training with more data may be about over - https://arxiv.org/pdf/2211.04325.pdf As for SEO, Google is going to have to stop being lazy and relying so much on backlinks and domain auth…

I’m not sure it’s Google’s fault at this point. Maybe it’s just that every site thinks they need to be SEO spam in order to be noticed. And so the internet has become a cesspool of stories about how this is the same recipe passed down in your family since Julius Caesar.

There have been a ton of articles about how Google sucks lately. Well, maybe Google has gotten worse, but maybe the internet has just gotten worse.

If I search for “best gaming laptop” or “taco recipe” the results are pretty much uniformly spammy across Google, Bing, and Neeva, the latter being a paid search engine. All of them are just farms for ads, popups, and paid links sandwiched between AI generated copy.

Is that the search engine’s fault? Is there some oasis of quality results I don’t know about? I would like to know.

Re: Drowning in AI Generated Garbage: the silent war we are fighting

#424

Post by guiambros »

debesyla wrote: post #421
ren_engineer wrote: post #127

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>aren't you just recreating reddit to an extent there are tons of ways to prevent that by weighting votes and only taking a random sample. SEO is basically a war where SEOs find a way to exploit Google's algorithm and Google tries to respond. Backlinks were Google's original solution to keyword spam that made other search engines suck, they didn't expect people would create entire sites or pay other websites to send…

I guess a return of "don't show this page in my results" could work better: it removes the worst results and it's hard to fake, no influencer is going to pay to downvote 200 pages and if they do, it would be easy to see that same user downvoted everything everything at random, without even clicking trough to read. Helps for both search users and the platform. Like a free moderation service. Why have an employee too c…

You'd still have to deal with adversarial spam. Competitor A pays a botnet to visit and downvote Competitor B's links at will, thus tanking its ranking.

In order to detect malicious activity you'd have to use a bunch of other signals, and also to use the downvotes with some suspicion, so you're back at looking content quality, reputation, page speed, and many other signals. Which sounds very similar to status quo.

Personally I'd like to see some sort of explicit input. If not used collectively, at least to customize my own results, like it happens on YT/Netflix/Instagram/etc - e.g. "never show results again from this site", or "I dislike this type of content".

Re: Drowning in AI Generated Garbage: the silent war we are fighting

#425

Post by lossolo »

visarga wrote: post #342
nradov wrote: post #190

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Search engines like Google are probably a dying technology. The next disruptive innovation in that space will be "answer engines" that use GPT like technology to dynamically generate specific answers to questions rather than linking users to third-party sites. This will allow for controlling the entire user experience and serving ads embedded in the generated content.

I don't think there will be ads. We'll be able to run a local chatBot just like we run SD.

SD is only 4 GB in size, you can run it on one 8-10 GB GPU, GPT-3 is around 350 GB so around 100x more, 99% of humanity can't run it locally currently even if they wanted.

Re: Drowning in AI Generated Garbage: the silent war we are fighting

#426

Post by freediver »

janalsncm wrote: post #423
ren_engineer wrote: post #117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

there's a paper that basically shows these LLMs are pretty much tapped out in terms of quality data to train on, not sure if there are any legit architecture improvements in the works to improve results quality but it seems brute force training with more data may be about over - https://arxiv.org/pdf/2211.04325.pdf As for SEO, Google is going to have to stop being lazy and relying so much on backlinks and domain auth…

I’m not sure it’s Google’s fault at this point. Maybe it’s just that every site thinks they need to be SEO spam in order to be noticed. And so the internet has become a cesspool of stories about how this is the same recipe passed down in your family since Julius Caesar. There have been a ton of articles about how Google sucks lately. Well, maybe Google has gotten worse, but maybe the internet has just gotten worse. I…

> If I search for “best gaming laptop” or “taco recipe” the results are pretty much uniformly spammy across Google, Bing, and Neeva, the latter being a paid search engine.

I believe you will find results on Kagi less spammy

https://kagi.com/search?q=best+gaming+laptop&r=us&sh=HJrdZzD...

(Kagi is also a paid search engine that requires an accunt, the above is publicly shared search)

Removing, downranking and classyfing spam/ads is part of things Kagi is focusing on and does decently well (IMO, Kagi founder here).

Re: Drowning in AI Generated Garbage: the silent war we are fighting

#427

Post by robocat »

lukev wrote: post #255

The answer is not to "disconnect". The answer is to read critically, to read for argument, and to try to connect with the intent of what the author was saying. All the while realizing that most of the content out there is bullshit( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/On_Bullshit ), whether written by a human or not. And yes, the amount of bullshit is about to increase exponentially. But it was already a majority. Ironicall…

I skim checked some paragraphs using https://huggingface.co/openai-detector/ and the article looks to be written by a human. However, the article from the link you gave I quickly found a “fake” (generated) paragraph.

That said, ChatGPT can produce text that looks 99.98% real on the GPT2 measurement tool. Also some people write GPT-looking text naturally (shallow mimicked shit without deeper semantic meaning!).

Re: Drowning in AI Generated Garbage: the silent war we are fighting

#428

Post by techdragon »

freediver wrote: post #426
janalsncm wrote: post #423

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’m not sure it’s Google’s fault at this point. Maybe it’s just that every site thinks they need to be SEO spam in order to be noticed. And so the internet has become a cesspool of stories about how this is the same recipe passed down in your family since Julius Caesar. There have been a ton of articles about how Google sucks lately. Well, maybe Google has gotten worse, but maybe the internet has just gotten worse. I…

> If I search for “best gaming laptop” or “taco recipe” the results are pretty much uniformly spammy across Google, Bing, and Neeva, the latter being a paid search engine. I believe you will find results on Kagi less spammy https://kagi.com/search?q=best+gaming+laptop&r=us&sh=HJrdZzD... (Kagi is also a paid search engine that requires an accunt, the above is publicly shared search) Removing, downranking and classyfin…

I do like to hear a founder of a still developing startup describe their current results as “decently well” … it speaks volumes about what their aim is and how they assess their current position trying to reach those goals. If you thought it wasn’t possible you wouldn’t be trying but you know you aren’t there yet.

Thanks for being honest like this. I really should get around to trying Kagi … I think I’m just still in the current habit inertia between DDG and Google

Re: Drowning in AI Generated Garbage: the silent war we are fighting

#429

Post by sarahlwalks »

TeMPOraL wrote: post #270
sarahlwalks wrote: post #189

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can only say that if you also say that the creativity of human beings themselves is just a way to launder copyright.

There's this magic phrase that makes all the difference: at scale .

That seems like saying a steam shovel is bad because it moves dirt at scale. Machines do increase the reach of people, that is exactly what they are for.

Re: Drowning in AI Generated Garbage: the silent war we are fighting

#430

Post by sarahlwalks »

throwaway290 wrote: post #317
sarahlwalks wrote: post #189

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can only say that if you also say that the creativity of human beings themselves is just a way to launder copyright.

This false equivalency just keeps being made. Yeah absolutely, acceptable in case of humans and not acceptable in case of GPT. GPT is not human. It is employed by a human to get around having to benefit other humans with attention and money. Meanwhile human world is structured around fate, happiness of humans -- such things guide our considerations as to what to consider legal and what not. There are other difference…

Machines -- at least today -- are extensions of human beings, and pretty democratic, really, compared to history. You can't really talk about limiting machines without also limiting humans. GPT is a tool. Almost anyone can use tools much like it. So what are we trying to protect against?
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