PFC bans are going to change waterproof garments • Hacker News Board

Re: PFC bans are going to change waterproof garments

#361

Post by wolfpack_mick » Mon, Dec 05, 2022, 11:37 AM UTC

analog31 wrote: post #275

acdha wrote: post #170

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Interesting. I have a fair amount of older ultralight stuff and while it definitely did the job I certainly felt that there was a sharp knuckle in the price curve where the extra cost wasn’t worth it. Durability is a big factor now though since I’m primarily bike commuting where it’s about daily use & weight is less important.

>>> Durability is a big factor now though since I’m primarily bike commuting where it’s about daily use & weight is less important. Nothing's more annoying than an expensive rain jacket or pants soaking through after a couple years of sporadic use. The crotch and knees of rain pants always wear out from the inside. Sunlight probably damages materials from the outside. More and more I've learned to live without that g…

I recently learned that there's a special washing detergent and heat activated coating that you're supposed to treat Goretex with quite often. And sure enough when I did the water drops form beads again instead of soaking it. I'm curious to find out wether this will increase the lifetime significantly.

Re: PFC bans are going to change waterproof garments

#362

Post by jibbit » Mon, Dec 05, 2022, 11:38 AM UTC

refurb wrote: post #350

jibbit wrote: post #349

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can’t be serious?

100% serious. Value is 100% a human construct. If there are no humans there is no value, at least in any sense that we talk about it. If you disagree then argue your point. Asking if I’m “serious” is not an argument.

No post body was provided.

Re: PFC bans are going to change waterproof garments

#363

Post by elric » Mon, Dec 05, 2022, 12:07 PM UTC

nwah1 wrote: post #172

akiselev wrote: post #142

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That doesn’t make much sense. Every atom of calcium in a chicken bone came from a field somewhere that now has to be augmented with more calcium. The easiest way to supply that calcium is to grind up the chicken bones and sprinkle them on the fields - if you go to a garden center you’ll find tons of products that list “bonemeal” as an ingredient. Since chickens require 3-5x their biomass in food and calcium in their…

Matter is neither created nor destroyed. The atomes in the landfill are also still available to be reclaimed.

Depends on the landfill, I guess? I would imagine that most modern landfills are lined with heavy duty plastic sheets to prevent all the toxic crap from leaching into the groundwater. What happens to that stuff? I guess some of it will biodegrade over a long period of time, and I'm sure all kinds of animals will attempt to feed on it, but the vast majority of the bulk is no longer part of the ecosystem. For better or for worse.

In my part of the world we incinerate most of our waste and turn some of the waste heat into electricity. I wonder what happens to the organic matter in that scenario. Most of it probably ends up as toxic ash which is pretty useless?

Re: PFC bans are going to change waterproof garments

#364

Post by refurb » Mon, Dec 05, 2022, 12:12 PM UTC

jibbit wrote: post #362

refurb wrote: post #350

Earlier quoted context omitted.

100% serious. Value is 100% a human construct. If there are no humans there is no value, at least in any sense that we talk about it. If you disagree then argue your point. Asking if I’m “serious” is not an argument.

Quoted post unavailable.

Based on your response I'll assume you have no argument since you've resorted to name calling.

Re: PFC bans are going to change waterproof garments

#365

Post by analog31 » Mon, Dec 05, 2022, 12:39 PM UTC

acdha wrote: post #294

analog31 wrote: post #275

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>>> Durability is a big factor now though since I’m primarily bike commuting where it’s about daily use & weight is less important. Nothing's more annoying than an expensive rain jacket or pants soaking through after a couple years of sporadic use. The crotch and knees of rain pants always wear out from the inside. Sunlight probably damages materials from the outside. More and more I've learned to live without that g…

Yeap – and the price differential usually means you can buy like 5 pairs of Costco/L.L. Bean-grade stuff which takes the sting out of losing or damaging something, or simply leaving spares at work in case you forget to check the weather. Also, honesty compels me to note that if I wanted to shave weight off of my riding load out it’s a lot cheaper to start at the waistline.

That's what I do. The old stuff is at work. It has mostly eliminated having to carry the rain gear.

Re: PFC bans are going to change waterproof garments

#366

Post by paulcole » Mon, Dec 05, 2022, 1:09 PM UTC

serf wrote: post #331

paulcole wrote: post #239

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don’t eat meat, I’ve never driven a car, I don’t fly in airplanes, I don’t have kids, and I live in a tiny apartment. How many of those are true for you? I’ll allow myself the planet-killing indulgence of the jacket — which pales in comparison to those other steps I’ve taken. Plus, I have a chronic illness that will already likely significantly shorten my life anyway. I’m not too worried about the health effects of…

> I don’t eat meat, I’ve never driven a car, I don’t fly in airplanes, I don’t have kids, and I live in a tiny apartment. How many of those are true for you? as an earth-noid I appreciate the service you're doing for us here, we need more like you; but weaponizing those points makes the endeavor feel like a big exercise in virtue signaling -- I very-much hope you chose to live your life that way for a greater reason…

> I very-much hope you chose to live your life that way for a greater reason than one-upping someone on the internet.

Let’s just call that a nice side benefit.

Re: PFC bans are going to change waterproof garments

#367

Post by makeitdouble » Mon, Dec 05, 2022, 1:22 PM UTC

cwwc wrote: post #202

bradlys wrote: post #161

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Rain when it's 40F out hits different. It's not 70 and raining. It makes you much colder.

I get this — but in the Lakes district (England) or anyplace in Scotland, rain at 40F is still common yet folks are unperturbed and continue their daily outdoor activities.

There is a world of difference if you can get into a warm place within minutes, or every now and then.

I also don’t care about rain when going shopping, or walking through the park, or for tourism. But I’ll be extra careful if I’m trekking or biking, as there’s just no option to quickly move to a resting place if I get too wet or too cold. It’s not like I’ll hop into a Starbuck in the middle of the mountain trail.

Re: PFC bans are going to change waterproof garments

#368

Post by flybrand » Mon, Dec 05, 2022, 1:24 PM UTC

paulcole wrote: post #174

flybrand wrote: post #117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Did you work with POLARTEC Neoshell or the North Face Futurelight? There were some bike garments made of similar materials.

I’ve had Neoshell shoes and they were fine as well. But never worn anything w/ that fabric or Futurelight. But from the branding that is very alpine/mountaineering focused, I’d guess that Futurelight is going to be too warm/heavy to be practical for running.

Sughoi (sp?) had Neoshell bike gear and new composites often focus on higher asp markets like mountaineering before they go into running, etc. These products are about breathable water barrier, not about warmth. They will come!

Re: PFC bans are going to change waterproof garments

#369

Post by flybrand » Mon, Dec 05, 2022, 1:26 PM UTC

wyre wrote: post #179

flybrand wrote: post #117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Did you work with POLARTEC Neoshell or the North Face Futurelight? There were some bike garments made of similar materials.

Neoshell and Futurelight are 3L fabrics so are going to be more similar to eVent than shakedry.

It seems like you’re saying that all monolayer products are better than all composite layers.

I would agree that optimal PTFE is a mini layer, bc it’s got such poor air perm.

However, the ‘working’ layer in futurelight and Neoshell has about 1/3 the material as PTFE and much higher void volume, making for higher flow rates. It’s worth checking out.

Re: PFC bans are going to change waterproof garments

#370

Post by DebtDeflation » Mon, Dec 05, 2022, 1:47 PM UTC

Historically Gore has made their membranes from ePTFE. Other companies have made their membranes from electrospun PU due to Gore's patents. My understanding is that PU is widely viewed as inferior to ePTFE for performance and durability. So if Gore plans to switch from ePTFE to PU, it's a step backwards in terms of performance. This at the same time that the industry has switched DWR coatings from C8 to C6 and soon C4, which while more environmentally friendly are significantly less effective and durable.

At some point we're going to just move away from WPB rain gear and go back to waterproof but nonbreathable gear (e.g., silnylon and silpoly) and rely on mechanical ventilation (pit zips, 2 way front zips, wrist and waist cinches) for breathability.