Emergency declared and curfew imposed following North Carolina power grid attack • Hacker News Board

Re: Emergency declared and curfew imposed following North Carolina power grid attack

#181

Post by jvm___ » Mon, Dec 05, 2022, 2:21 AM UTC

patmcc wrote: post #132

throwawaytoilet wrote: post #106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A VHS cassette tape thrown over transmission lines in the middle of nowhere coordinated at 3 or 4 key locations would do that too… and much easier ordinance to acquire. NMS systems can’t react and load shedding chaos is likely.

I think a lot about how terrorists don't act and I guess I don't understand their motives. Electric grids, fiber optic lines, train tracks, bridges, water mains, sewage treatment, all of these can be pretty easily disrupted with equipment that isn't hard to get and doesn't require extensive training. And the disruption could be extreme . I mean, I'm glad they're not doing any of this, but I'm puzzled.

Maybe intelligent people aren't treated in a way that triggers a terroristic response against society?

Or intelligent people have a level of self-preservation that doesn't allow for the execution of ideas. The ideas of what and how to cause mass disorder are fairly easy if you have enough knowledge, the desire to execute is whats usually missing.

Re: Emergency declared and curfew imposed following North Carolina power grid attack

#182

Post by BLKNSLVR » Mon, Dec 05, 2022, 2:21 AM UTC

dmix wrote: post #156

BLKNSLVR wrote: post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Quoting from the movie Contact: "Why build one, when you could build two for twice the price?" I'd assume this isn't standard procedure, but agree that it should be, considering the increasing importance of power supply to society and in the current terror-paranoia state of the world.

It's probably as idealistic as it gets, governments acting in the long-term interests extending beyond their elected position AND hopefully not turning a it into something costing 10x and 2x as long. But maybe it can focus on a limited set of parts? Terrorism and security has always been a great motivator for gov capital. Although it typically goes to Washington consultants rather than spending it on critical parts.

Based on actual events (ie. fiction):

The report, which cost taxpayers $x million, recommended the purchase of spare parts costing $y thousand, which would reduce the downtime of power transmission, due to the failure of these parts, to hours rather than days or possibly weeks.

Actions based on this report are due to be debated following the election, due to be held in 8 months' time.

Re: Emergency declared and curfew imposed following North Carolina power grid attack

#183

Post by dismalpedigree » Mon, Dec 05, 2022, 2:21 AM UTC

burritas wrote: post #165

chromatin wrote: post #160

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Conductive

Seems like the tape would get burnt up before too much damage was done though.

Yes, but across sufficiently high voltage lines the initial arc would create a plasma channel which would act like a thick wire for the short to continue

Re: Emergency declared and curfew imposed following North Carolina power grid attack

#184

Post by nadieyninguno1 » Mon, Dec 05, 2022, 2:23 AM UTC

anigbrowl wrote: post #20

makeworld wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Seems like some group is making another test of their abilities. Perhaps gathering data on government response and repair times. Makes me wonder if a coordinated multi-location strike is coming sometime in the future. Scary stuff.

Not coordinated, think open source insurgency not unlike those in Iraq or Syria.

While back I was listening to a Jocko Podcast episode wherein the host was discussing his watching the meltdown in Iraq.

Internally, the military had some reporting on “Significant Activities,” major protests and bombings and infrastructure attacks and such.

I’ve always wondered is there anything open-source of that nature - tracking “activities” like these?

Re: Emergency declared and curfew imposed following North Carolina power grid attack

#185

Post by jrs235 » Mon, Dec 05, 2022, 2:28 AM UTC

dmix wrote: post #92

BLKNSLVR wrote: post #86

A grenade (or IED) or two thrown in coordination into a few of those local-area transformer / power distribution stations would cause state-level chaos. Where I live, these seemingly critical infrastructure outposts, are protected by nothing more than high chicken-wire fences. Cyber Squirrel is the best and longest-lived exemplification of the sensitivity and scale of this vulnerability: https://cybersquirrel1.com/ T…

Apparently "Lead time on replacement parts" is the biggest issue today with dealing with the issue in a prompt time frame. Maybe they should stock up on at least 1x set of repair parts that would take a long timeframe to replace? Ukraine has shown how important electric substation part supply chains are.

There's a 1 year lead time for reserve replacement parts too. And if everyone orders now because of long lead times then the lead time will increase (for non reserve replacement we need it now parts).

Re: Emergency declared and curfew imposed following North Carolina power grid attack

#186

Post by noirbot » Mon, Dec 05, 2022, 2:29 AM UTC

ls612 wrote: post #180

noirbot wrote: post #146

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I suppose most of it is that terrorism and just any ideological violence is more about sending a message than being effective. This isn't total war. The point isn't really to outage a random town/county from power or internet. You want to be flashy and obvious. It's why suicide missions are the common method. Being a martyr is more ideologically powerful than causing massive damage. If you're subtle but effective, yo…

I mean you have the Russians waging total war on Ukraine with much better than improvised weapons and they can only keep the power off sometimes. That sends a very clear signal to me.

And Ukraine is doing a lot more to defend than some random US local police department is doing against an unexpected attack.

That's the point. These sort of oppression attacks are mostly effective if you can keep them up. Power out for a day or two is annoying, but power out for half of the week every week for months is effective oppression. People tend to bond over trouble and oppression.

By comparison, suicide attacks on some significant or vulnerable place sends the sort of message that resonates for years. Oppression only is really effective if you can keep it up until you fully control the situation and develop some hegemony.

Re: Emergency declared and curfew imposed following North Carolina power grid attack

#187

Post by greedo » Mon, Dec 05, 2022, 2:31 AM UTC

nadieyninguno1 wrote: post #171

jrm4 wrote: post #58

Kind of surprising to not see the words "domestic terrorism" here, so let me be the first? This very well could be domestic terrorism and for now it would be prudent to treat it as such.

Just spitballing here - turning it into an “event” might will spur copy-cat attacks around the country. The slow-play around reporting of possible attackers and motives is trying to stop the social contagion.

These groups are already organized and coordinated. They mobbed/brigaded school board meetings in a coordinated fashion. They know who their allies are, and are now starting to act out in more violent fashion. Sunlight is the best disinfectant.

Re: Emergency declared and curfew imposed following North Carolina power grid attack

#188

Post by dtgriscom » Mon, Dec 05, 2022, 2:33 AM UTC

rch wrote: post #22

I wonder how well stocked the U.S. is with replacement inventory for facilities like this.

My understanding is that large transformers aren't standard; they need to be custom-made for their application. (Not sure why, and there'd be big benefits to changing this, but that's what I've heard...)

Re: Emergency declared and curfew imposed following North Carolina power grid attack

#189

Post by all2 » Mon, Dec 05, 2022, 2:34 AM UTC

stickfigure wrote: post #154

all2 wrote: post #139

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Quoted post unavailable.

How on earth did you make the jump from drag shows to pedophilia?

Drag shows are inherently sexual in nature. I've been to a few. Is the sexual nature of drag shows in question?

Drag shows for kids, that are inherently viewed as sexually provocative, is sexualizing interactions with kids.

Re: Emergency declared and curfew imposed following North Carolina power grid attack

#190

Post by myself248 » Mon, Dec 05, 2022, 2:42 AM UTC

BLKNSLVR wrote: post #101

dmix wrote: post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Apparently "Lead time on replacement parts" is the biggest issue today with dealing with the issue in a prompt time frame. Maybe they should stock up on at least 1x set of repair parts that would take a long timeframe to replace? Ukraine has shown how important electric substation part supply chains are.

Quoting from the movie Contact: "Why build one, when you could build two for twice the price?" I'd assume this isn't standard procedure, but agree that it should be, considering the increasing importance of power supply to society and in the current terror-paranoia state of the world.

I've heard, but have no sources for it, that it's difficult to scale up production of large transformers. And as everyone's said, without government invention, there's no money in having a reserve. It's even worse if the _rate_ of consumption doesn't go up, then adding production to build up a reserve is folly, because the plant is guaranteed to go idle once the reserve is achieved. So, I don't have high hopes for that, at least not in a significant way.

Going the other way, decentralizing the grid, putting solar and batteries on as many homes as possible, is already happening. There's already financial incentive. Utilities are adding _disincentives_ every chance they get, because they see it as reducing their customer base, rather than adding resiliency. But, customers and regulators are pushing back, and the situation in most places isn't terrible. And as a result, it's scaling up as fast as the market can scale it.

Neither of these things will solve the problem completely, but I think we'll meet in the middle. Over the coming years, an interconnected grid will become decreasingly relevant for larger and larger fractions of the population. And outages, and even the very concept of outages, will approach quaint-memory status.

Initially and particularly, this will benefit folks out in the boonies with lots of land for panels, who are usually on the losing end of the response time for outage restoration in the first place.