PFC bans are going to change waterproof garments • Hacker News Board

Re: PFC bans are going to change waterproof garments

#211

Post by jupp0r » Sun, Dec 04, 2022, 9:52 PM UTC

wyre wrote: post #13

For anyone not familiar with what makes Shakedry so revolutionary is its ability to be waterproof, highly breathable, and incredibly lightweight. Its weight and breathability make it incredible for active sports like cycling or running. These jackets weigh around 100-150g depending on features and size and can pack into the pocket of a cycling Jersey, all while being waterproof and preventing the athlete from overhea…

The tradeoff here is that it's very prone to abrasion. You can't currently use this technology for purposes like hiking because backpack straps, scraping against rocks etc would put small holes in the external membrane. Perfect for cycling though!

Re: PFC bans are going to change waterproof garments

#212

Post by projektfu » Sun, Dec 04, 2022, 9:56 PM UTC

cwwc wrote: post #202

bradlys wrote: post #161

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Rain when it's 40F out hits different. It's not 70 and raining. It makes you much colder.

I get this — but in the Lakes district (England) or anyplace in Scotland, rain at 40F is still common yet folks are unperturbed and continue their daily outdoor activities.

It's amazing how effective a wool sweater and coat can be in those situations. They're very breathable and hydrophobic. I don't think they'd work for the pro cyclist but they're great for the layers-oriented worker.

Re: PFC bans are going to change waterproof garments

#213

Post by jk7tarYZAQNpTQa » Sun, Dec 04, 2022, 9:57 PM UTC

Jolter wrote: post #93

hammock wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Shakedry is just a bare goretex membrane, as far as I know…aka without the outer shell fabric. Not sure it’s revolutionary. You reduce weight and bulk by eliminating the outer fabric but at the expense of abrasion resistance. Why it works for road cycling but not much else.

If the article is right, Shakedry is also heavily treated with perflourated toxic stuff. On the outside, presumably.

Like every Gore-Tex product.

Re: PFC bans are going to change waterproof garments

#214

Post by jk7tarYZAQNpTQa » Sun, Dec 04, 2022, 9:58 PM UTC

paulcole wrote: post #43

acdha wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> waterproof, highly breathable, and incredibly lightweight This is basically the way most outdoors products have been marketed since the previous century so I’m not sure how much we’re actually talking about here. What I was hoping to see in that article was something more quantitative — does “heavy and doesn't breathe as well” mean something is 20% heavier or 200%, etc.?

This is what makes ShakeDry so revolutionary. The nonsense brands have been saying about waterproof and breathable is actually real. I’ve done 30 mile runs in the pouring rain w/ my ShakeDry jacket and come out “dry” at the end. The material never wets through. The only downside for me is that it does wear “warm” so I mostly wear it in under 45F degree weather — which coincides nicely with Portland’s rainiest weather…

No post body was provided.

Re: PFC bans are going to change waterproof garments

#215

Post by Jolter » Sun, Dec 04, 2022, 10:03 PM UTC

josephcsible wrote: post #197

Jolter wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You realize this stuff is actually /toxic/, right? Can you come up with a single incentive that would make the industry invent non-toxic alternatives faster than a ban on the toxic substances would?

Tetraethyl lead was actually toxic too. What incentive led the avgas industry to replace it before it was banned?

Not sure what point you’re trying to make with that. I don’t know this stuff but I know how too look it up on Wikipedia, and it looks to me like it was phased out because regulators threatened a ban:

“In November 2008, National Air Transportation Association president Jim Coyne indicated that the environmental impact of aviation is expected to be a big issue over the next few years and will result in the phasing out of 100LL because of its lead content.[45]

By May 2012, the US Federal Aviation Administration (FAA Unleaded Avgas Transition rulemaking committee) had put together a plan in conjunction with industry to replace leaded avgas with an unleaded alternative within 11 years.”

Re: PFC bans are going to change waterproof garments

#216

Post by Jolter » Sun, Dec 04, 2022, 10:08 PM UTC

qbasic_forever wrote: post #138

Jolter wrote: post #114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can’t reconcile that with what the OP states: "While the Shakedry fabric has been great for its characteristics as a cycling jacket (waterproofness, breathability and lightweight), the membrane also contains PFOA [ed. Perfluorooctanoic acid] chemicals, and Gore is dedicated to being PFOA-free by 2025[…]” Certainly seems like shakedry is being phased out because it contains a (banned) toxic chemical. What am I getti…

Like I said creating the PTFE is the problem and where restrictions are being placed on those manufacturers.

I can’t find that in the article. Do you have a source for it?

Regular gore-Tex is still on the market and it’s also based on PTFE so I must assume it’s the special formulations in Shakedry that are now banned. I e whatever PFOA is.

Re: PFC bans are going to change waterproof garments

#217

Post by fnordpiglet » Sun, Dec 04, 2022, 10:08 PM UTC

cobalt wrote: post #209

fnordpiglet wrote: post #111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

ePTFE and it’s story is amazing. https://www.wired.com/story/how-gore-tex-was-invented/

it's a little more complicated actually: http://www.no8rewired.kiwi/nz-inventions/eptfe-aka-goretex/

Interesting story! Thanks.

Re: PFC bans are going to change waterproof garments

#218

Post by frereubu » Sun, Dec 04, 2022, 10:10 PM UTC

siftrics wrote: post #123

paulcole wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is what makes ShakeDry so revolutionary. The nonsense brands have been saying about waterproof and breathable is actually real. I’ve done 30 mile runs in the pouring rain w/ my ShakeDry jacket and come out “dry” at the end. The material never wets through. The only downside for me is that it does wear “warm” so I mostly wear it in under 45F degree weather — which coincides nicely with Portland’s rainiest weather…

>The only downside for me Not to mention the main downside of getting cancer

Are you saying that's the case for exposure to it when wearing clothing with it on?

To be clear I'm not diminishing the experience of the people who live around the plant where it was produced if that's what you're referring to, where clearly it had a terrible effect, but my understanding of that was DuPont dumped thousands of tonnes of toxic waste in the ground near the plant that went into the groundwater, which is very different from wearing the product.

Re: PFC bans are going to change waterproof garments

#219

Post by jmull » Sun, Dec 04, 2022, 10:10 PM UTC

throwaway892238 wrote: post #195

I must be a weirdo.... I just wear lots of wool, and a thin windproof/rainproof jacket with armpit zips. I get sweaty but I stay warm (as long as I'm moving)

Wool + wind shield is actually pretty hard to beat.

The modern materials can be effective while being very light weight and take up little space. But I think these are much more niche concerns than most people like to acknowledge.

I think the real reason the modern materials are more popular than wool+ is that they are more profitable when marketed, and hence are heavily marketed.

Re: PFC bans are going to change waterproof garments

#220

Post by halpmeh » Sun, Dec 04, 2022, 10:15 PM UTC

jmull wrote: post #219

throwaway892238 wrote: post #195

I must be a weirdo.... I just wear lots of wool, and a thin windproof/rainproof jacket with armpit zips. I get sweaty but I stay warm (as long as I'm moving)

Wool + wind shield is actually pretty hard to beat. The modern materials can be effective while being very light weight and take up little space. But I think these are much more niche concerns than most people like to acknowledge. I think the real reason the modern materials are more popular than wool+ is that they are more profitable when marketed, and hence are heavily marketed.

Wearing a waterproof shell gets you pretty steamy. Apparently this ShakeDry fabric is actually breathable. I wear wool + shell (note, waterproof shells likely contain PFCs), but I hate how humid it gets. I’m very intrigued by ShakeDry after reading this thread.