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Fosshost Is Shutting Down

fosshost.org

91–100 of 149 posts

Re: Fosshost Is Shutting Down

#91

Open source needs sustainable funding models. It's hard to tell what fosshost was and how many people are impacted. It's also unclear what the Radix project is how it will be different/avoid what caused fosshost to shut down.

My grand theory is that for a lot of reasons we need to restructure society to focus on automating most of the basic tasks required to reproduce society (basic manufacturing of shoes, farming, etc) in a collectively owned and managed way, and then provide the "dividend" of this production for free to everyone as a kind of basic support. Cheap housing, free food and clothes, basic medical care, etc. In such a world, open source devs could live off of that basic support indefinitely, rather than slowly draining savings or killing themselves working a second job to fund the open source work. I think if we did this we would see much more open innovation, which would lead to more rapid innovation, which would be good for everyone. Its more of a distant goal and doesn't solve the problem today, but its something I like to discuss as it can inform what direction we head in.

Re: Fosshost Is Shutting Down

#92

Open source needs sustainable funding models. It's hard to tell what fosshost was and how many people are impacted. It's also unclear what the Radix project is how it will be different/avoid what caused fosshost to shut down.

My grand theory is that for a lot of reasons we need to restructure society to focus on automating most of the basic tasks required to reproduce society (basic manufacturing of shoes, farming, etc) in a collectively owned and managed way, and then provide the "dividend" of this production for free to everyone as a kind of basic support. Cheap housing, free food and clothes, basic medical care, etc. In such a world, o…

That's the direction that the world should head in.

Re: Fosshost Is Shutting Down

#93
post #5

There's a serious lack of useful information here. "Due to circumstances outside of the control of the Fosshost volunteers, we are now in a situation where we cannot guarantee our servers will stay online, and in fact expect them to go offline shortly." and in the link: "I'm expecting the BOS datacenter to go offline in the very near future." And in their Twitter profile, they seem to be a non-profit. I presume then…

We are unable to pay for co-location costs, and that's why our servers will go offline as Thomas our CEO is unreacheable. He only has access to bank and thus to funds. Explaination of the DC thing at Github: https://github.com/fosshostorg/fosshost.org/blob/main/src/po... (Other posts can be read from there too.) Post from three months ago regarding state of affairs: https://github.com/fosshostorg/fosshost.org/blob/ma…

in situations like this, if you could use financial help you need to blurt out what the costs are that need to be covered.

There's plenty of people with money about, so if you have somebody's attention take advantage of it. I've already clicked a half a dozen link and there's no info. Why make me work so hard?

if you are happy it's over, well, that's ok, thanks for volunteering as long as you guys have.

Re: Fosshost Is Shutting Down

#94

Open source needs sustainable funding models. It's hard to tell what fosshost was and how many people are impacted. It's also unclear what the Radix project is how it will be different/avoid what caused fosshost to shut down.

My grand theory is that for a lot of reasons we need to restructure society to focus on automating most of the basic tasks required to reproduce society (basic manufacturing of shoes, farming, etc) in a collectively owned and managed way, and then provide the "dividend" of this production for free to everyone as a kind of basic support. Cheap housing, free food and clothes, basic medical care, etc. In such a world, o…

This sounds like a fantastic future, but I have problems imagining it actually working out that way, given how greedy humans can be. I'm not convinced by projections of UBI maybe due to my own lack of imagination.

I find it difficult to imagine a world where UBI doesn't create a two-tier system -- pre-nationalization haves and have-nots. Such schemes make me imagine a world where people who built capital and became necessary (ex. Walmart) will have fresh money for their monopolies guaranteed for all time.

As for the very specific problem of open source not being properly supported, I think there's a closer/easier stopgap -- monetization.

Free software exists because idealists manipulating existing legal systems to meet their ends. I think we need the same thing, but in the business domain. We need hackers that are good at business just like free software needed hackers that knew enough about the legal system.

Put simply -- we need more businesses who work with F/OSS and give back to it. Imagine if even .1% of Amazon's revenue was going back into the open source projects it uses across the stack. The open source world would look drastically different.

I'm biased towards this solution because I'm trying to build it, but I bet I can build something to generate value for F/OSS faster than we can straighten out the allocation of society.

Re: Fosshost Is Shutting Down

#95
post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, your sentiment is nice and all, but you're effectively dooming every nonprofit to spectacular dissolution if their CEO decides to not answer the phone. Non-profits, you know, those things that are supposed to serve the public good? But I guess public good is on hold if the CEO goes AWOL.

Am I? This group wasn't able to separate the executive function from treasury function (despite their efforts to do so, it seems like this executive simply refused) - isn't that what caused this mess? If you structure an organization such that there is a single executive who cannot be held accountable - then your bus number is 1. Law enforcement cannot improve your bus number. It doesn't matter if your executive stea…

> If you structure an organization such that there is a single executive who cannot be held accountable

I think you're assuming an ideal, spherical organization, in a vacuum (as the physicists say). In other words, you're assuming that you can "just" structure your organization such that there's no single human point of failure, or that you can remove that point of failure without legal intervention. Which... well, you have to prove that!

Re: Fosshost Is Shutting Down

#96
post #89
post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It's not like random people are driving up to their house to harass them When you direct law enforcement to investigate someone, you should anticipate this as a strong possibility. > And if they are having a mental health crisis, they should be able to plea insanity. I think the bar for this is much higher than having a mental health crisis, and that even if successful it won't result in you maintaining your libert…

I absolutely agree with you that police often make things worse than they need to be. But we can't just allow people to do bad things, shrug, and move on. Even if the CEO of Fosshost has a legitimate excuse for what's going on, taking no action at all just tells the true sociopaths among us that they can get away with whatever they want, because people will assume there's a reasonable explanation, and not involve aut…

It's clear from your reply that you've read closely & made an effort to hear me out despite disagreeing with me, and it's appreciated. I don't have all the answers here either; I can point in what I think is the right direction, but my understanding on this is a work in progress, and I'm not any sort of genius of sociology or political theory. I don't expect to be the person who cracks the code on the human condition. But I'll try to address your comment with the same respect you've addressed mine.

The question of how many guilty people we can let go free per innocent is like the question of how many angels can dance on the head of a pin; a vital question to which there is no answer, but which must be evaluated and re-evaluated ceaselessly. I think it's important that we keep trying to perfect society. I think it's important that we come up with utopian visions and try to implement them, knowing full well that we won't reach them. We must avoid the pitfall of looking at the tools available to us, finding them unsuited to the task, and then saying, "well, these are all the tools that I have to work with" - when we find ourselves with only bad options, what we need are more tools. Every tool we have was created by that same process.

Coercing people to follow the law with violence is just not a great plan for many reasons. There are unjust laws. There are abusive police. Fundamentally, it is a reactive system; it responds to injustices that have already happened. The idea that we punish people when they step out of line as an example to everyone else doesn't really solve the problem - if it had, surely we wouldn't be having this discussion. Desperate people will commit crimes anyway, and their punishment will only enhance their desperation. People with significant privileges realize that they can't be held accountable. Overall retributive justice treats crime as some sort of affront that demands a violent response, an eye for an eye, but I think it's more productive to think of it as a problem which demands a solution. When you view it through the lens of problem solving, it changes your perspective and what you imagine to be possible.

We should eliminate desperation and perverse incentives that lead to crime wherever possible. When that isn't possible, we should seek to detect & reverse it immediately, within the organization or community where it's happened, and excise or reprise that community member as appropriate. We should be accountable to one another, through peaceful means, and not the state through violence.

It's a common concern that, without the threat of violence, society would fall apart, as you expressed. But I don't believe that is what will happen. I think the root of this is a Hobbsian view that the fear of violence is what binds us together - if you hold this view than naturally, without violence, that binding force would be gone. But is that true of your own life? I believe people are generally motivated by care for one another more often than fear of violence. When I think about the actions I take in a given day, and I ask myself why I did them, virtually all of them are because I want to take care of the people around me. That's why I did the dishes and cooked meals for my household today; that's why I checked up on my friend who was supposed to call me, but didn't (they're fine); that's why I've been shopping for gifts; etc. I think violence in our society serves to shape our behaviors to fit a particular mold, that benefits those in power and which we wouldn't submit to voluntarily. But without that violence, I think we would still have a society, and a more just one at that. It hijacks our society for a particular purpose, but it isn't the glue that holds it together.

It's easy to find ways my ideas are imperfect, I'll readily admit that. You can't simply detect and reverse murder, being an obvious one. I'm not so naive as to think a perfect society can be achieved without perfect humans, and I don't see that as a real possibility. But I hope I can convince you that it's worth looking at things from a problem solving perspective, rather than a coercive one.

Re: Fosshost Is Shutting Down

#97
post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Am I? This group wasn't able to separate the executive function from treasury function (despite their efforts to do so, it seems like this executive simply refused) - isn't that what caused this mess? If you structure an organization such that there is a single executive who cannot be held accountable - then your bus number is 1. Law enforcement cannot improve your bus number. It doesn't matter if your executive stea…

> If you structure an organization such that there is a single executive who cannot be held accountable I think you're assuming an ideal, spherical organization, in a vacuum (as the physicists say). In other words, you're assuming that you can "just" structure your organization such that there's no single human point of failure, or that you can remove that point of failure without legal intervention. Which... well, y…

Sure, but I don't think it's even that controversial or untested an idea. I think this is pretty common in startups, but they'd call it a "flat org-chart." It's generally seen as unacceptable to have the executive and treasurer be the same person, even in very vertical organizations. It's my observation that, if you leave people to their own devices to perform a task with a narrow scope, they pretty much form a horizontal organization where they make decisions by consensus, because that's what makes the most sense to them.

That being said, I do have a lot of ideas about this, which I am hoping to test by starting a company when I have the means to do so, and if you'd like to fund me, my email is in my bio. (/s)

Re: Fosshost Is Shutting Down

#99
post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If you structure an organization such that there is a single executive who cannot be held accountable I think you're assuming an ideal, spherical organization, in a vacuum (as the physicists say). In other words, you're assuming that you can "just" structure your organization such that there's no single human point of failure, or that you can remove that point of failure without legal intervention. Which... well, y…

Sure, but I don't think it's even that controversial or untested an idea. I think this is pretty common in startups, but they'd call it a "flat org-chart." It's generally seen as unacceptable to have the executive and treasurer be the same person, even in very vertical organizations. It's my observation that, if you leave people to their own devices to perform a task with a narrow scope, they pretty much form a horiz…

[deleted]

Re: Fosshost Is Shutting Down

#100
post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If you structure an organization such that there is a single executive who cannot be held accountable I think you're assuming an ideal, spherical organization, in a vacuum (as the physicists say). In other words, you're assuming that you can "just" structure your organization such that there's no single human point of failure, or that you can remove that point of failure without legal intervention. Which... well, y…

Sure, but I don't think it's even that controversial or untested an idea. I think this is pretty common in startups, but they'd call it a "flat org-chart." It's generally seen as unacceptable to have the executive and treasurer be the same person, even in very vertical organizations. It's my observation that, if you leave people to their own devices to perform a task with a narrow scope, they pretty much form a horiz…

Are you sure? Consider what happens when a CEO is suddenly unable to function. What happens to company property, intellectual property, notes, etc. that are in their possession? Do they magically vanish? Or do you try to recover them? Maybe the CEO's corporate laptop will show up on ebay with files intact. Is that an optimal outcome? What if the person lives alone? At what point is law enforcement a.k.a. "the gubment" involvement okay with you?
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