Live data from Hacker News

The distinction between free speech as a legal right and cultural value

thefire.org

331–340 of 428 posts

Re: The distinction between free speech as a legal right and cultural value

#331
post #320

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> hate speech being free speech is an American thing It's the constitution, innit? It's a confusing document, with many compromises. But many US citizens treat it like the Shroud of Turin. The German laws are tied up with Germany's history in the 20th C. In other parts of Western Europe, restrictions are less stringent and less specific. Obviously there are types of "harmless" speech that are likely to provoke a viol…

> > hate speech being free speech is an American thing > It's the constitution, innit? Is it? I wasn't aware that hate speech was explicitly singled out as protected in the Constitution. > Do people really think that speech that's likely to cause public disorder is OK? Public disorder, no. But innocent people getting heard? Well, maybe. Lots of speech that hurts innocent people is already banned. Things like libel/sl…

> Things like libel/slander. Threats. Blackmail.

Libel and slander are civil matters in the United States.

Re: The distinction between free speech as a legal right and cultural value

#332

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This has a dependency on the public's skills in distinguishing between True, False, and (rarely an option available to most) Unknown. There is also reason to believe that governments and corporations may prefer that people aren't very capable in this area.

There's some truth to this, but what's the alternative? Do we design communication systems with the assumption that all people are incapable of telling fact from fiction just to make it easier for those who can't? I think it's far better to give people the tools to work out what is true/false and to debate difficult topics (even those without a clear answer) in a transparent manner. I'd agree that both governments an…

> There's some truth to this, but what's the alternative?

I propose we try something similar to what we did when there was an undesirably low level of literacy in society: mass education. But in this case, the subject would be philosophy.

> Do we design communication systems with the assumption that all people are incapable of telling fact from fiction just to make it easier for those who can't?

I would say yes, but I would drop the "just to make it easier for those who can't" and replace it with something like "because an undesirably low level of people in society have substantial skill in logic, epistemology, rhetoric, etc, and it is at least plausible that this state of affairs could have negative consequences, including with regard to 'existential' problems like climate change or the preservation of 'democracy'[1]".

A big problem is that people tend to have pretty strong beliefs about their capabilities in any given domain, and the source of this confidence is very often substantially based on intuitive self-assessment, the output of which is a function of the very skills in question.

> I think it's far better to give people the tools to work out what is true/false and to debate difficult topics (even those without a clear answer) in a transparent manner.

100% agree. Though, we already have tools that could support that activity (HN is one such example), but they currently have no means of insisting that people do it (unlike in a classroom where unruly/etc students who are downgrading the learning of others can be and are asked to leave, in an adequately skillful way (sufficient to accomplish the goal)).

> I'd agree that both governments and corporations would be thrilled at the idea of a population that has no choice but to accept whatever they are told, but I think that as a people we're better served when we have the option to develop the skills to think critically and online platforms can play an important role in that.

Oh, humanity certainly has this option, it is not prevented by the laws of physics anyways. But having an option available does not guarantee that it will physically manifest - someone has to actually make it happen. Ironically, in the past I've run some of these ideas by moderators here and they....didn't have a lot of (even abstract) interest in the idea....which to me is a sign of...something.

[1] With luck, perhaps some day some non-trivial/adequate amount of humans on the planet would rise to a level of ability that they would be able to competently and accurately discuss the degree to which our "democracy" is actually democratic, a highly contentious and rather important topic that is absolutely butchered in any conversation I've encountered.

Free speech is another excellent example of a topic where most people (including genuinely smart people) simply lack the training required to discuss competently:

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=33823725

Re: The distinction between free speech as a legal right and cultural value

#333
post #326
post #313

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If there's noise you can't speak. And that's really what moderation is ultimately about. On every forum and platform: suppressing noise and increasing the signal-to-noise ratio. > If you're trying to muddle the waters of free speech with false narratives and strawman arguments like spam and porn, that's just cheap manipulation. How is that trying to muddy the waters? It's absolutely relevant. They're both great exa…

> hate speech is the thing that some people try to defend under the banner of free speech. I think it's more of an acknowledgement that there's a price to freedom/liberty and there are fundamental trade-offs involved. I.e. can't have our cake and eat it too. The difficulty is in finding where exactly the draw the line. For better or worse, currently there are many technically legal yet unsavory views allowed under "f…

Exactly. I'm not going to claim there's an easy solution to any of this. The line between "valid political opinion" and "hurting someone" can be very thin indeed. Sometimes they overlap, and then what?

All I'm saying is: we should be honest about these trade-offs, and not pretend there's such a thing as "absolute free speech". And I also think we'd better err on the side of allowing too much speech than on the side of too little. But at the same time, I also think events of the past couple of years warrant a reevaluation of those tradeoffs and there we draw those lines. And I don't think Twitter, Musk, or any other social media should be making those decisions for us, but they probably should be a voice in that discussion.

Re: The distinction between free speech as a legal right and cultural value

#334

I have a lot of respect for FIRE. Hell, I designed and built their website over a decade ago, when the organization was primarily focused on speech codes on college campuses. They were doing great and important work then, and continue to do now. It's also nice to see them attempting to separate "free speech" into two buckets of meaning, the legal and the cultural. It's a point that gets muddled. However, the article,…

I agree. People being able to call out and criticise the views of others is an important facet of free speech. I see the problem as: * disproportionate justice such as dogpiling * trying to get people fired, by applying pressure on employers * trying to de-platform, e.g. removing accounts and websites If it was just replies, there wouldn't be a problem.

All of those actions are replies.

Re: The distinction between free speech as a legal right and cultural value

#335
post #124

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because it's not very interesting because nobody has a good faith reason to argue in favor allowing SPAM. I assume it's being used to demonstrate the arbitrary nature of what speech people would want to allow, but it's a bit pointless. SPAM falls in the category of things that arguably are simply abuse of the system, using it in an unintended way. SPAM is not discourse, or an ideology, or a belief. SPAM is a pattern…

Is a whole bunch of people calling somebody a "fa***t" in DMs discourse? Lots of people have told me that this isn't illegal so Twitter should do nothing.

Is a whole bunch of people calling someone a Nazi any different? It's a signal of social disapproval, even if it's distasteful.

I think you can meaningfully distinguish individuals expressing distasteful speech from coordinated campaigns and harassment, and spam falls under the latter.

Re: The distinction between free speech as a legal right and cultural value

#336

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just FYI, hate speech being free speech is an American thing. Other democracies in the world have frameworks for limiting/prioritizing basic rights, right to free speech included (take, for example, German moderation laws) and have not become a totalitarian dystopias yet. One opinion I've heard in Germany is that the free speech absolutism and value neutrality of the constitution of the Weimar Republic allowed NSDAP…

> Just FYI, hate speech being free speech is an American thing. Other democracies in the world have frameworks for limiting/prioritizing basic rights, right to free speech included (take, for example, German moderation laws) and have not become a totalitarian dystopias yet. Sure, and America hasn't become a country of hate speech or devolved into tyranny yet either, despite what some claim, so do those laws actually…

> Sure, and America hasn't become a country of hate speech

Hate speech spewed by the likes of Tucker Carlson caused a mass shooting like a week ago...

Re: The distinction between free speech as a legal right and cultural value

#337
post #313

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Irrelevant speech is noise. Freedom of speech is freedom to speak to those who might want to hear, not to push ads and spam and porn on those who don't want it. There's no freedom of speech in a night club. If there's noise you can't speak. It doesn't stop with porn, if you're on a social platform to connect with friends and all you see is political things you don't care about, that's noise too. If a social media pla…

> If there's noise you can't speak. And that's really what moderation is ultimately about. On every forum and platform: suppressing noise and increasing the signal-to-noise ratio. > If you're trying to muddle the waters of free speech with false narratives and strawman arguments like spam and porn, that's just cheap manipulation. How is that trying to muddy the waters? It's absolutely relevant. They're both great exa…

> suppressing noise and increasing the signal-to-noise ratio.

So apparently here lies the gory details. There was a short interview article with one of fired Twitter engineer who claims to had been "basically responsible for messing up your timeline", and as a followup to the article, someone on Twitter who is believed to be that person defended that the end state that GP considers a worse state(so do everyone!) showed better retention through A/B testing.

They must have been doing what they think is good, backed by scientific methods and hard data, SNR ever improving in pandas. Yet everyone is in good agreement that Twitter had betrayed and sabotaged the user community, engaged in artificial manipulations on honest good people, accelerated divisions, radicalization, even promoting terrorism, worldwide.

I think we have elephants in the room, definition of SNR being one thing, or one of its legs. Something is off.

1: https://www.businessinsider.com/pro-elon-musk-twitter-employ...

Re: The distinction between free speech as a legal right and cultural value

#338
post #333
post #326

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> hate speech is the thing that some people try to defend under the banner of free speech. I think it's more of an acknowledgement that there's a price to freedom/liberty and there are fundamental trade-offs involved. I.e. can't have our cake and eat it too. The difficulty is in finding where exactly the draw the line. For better or worse, currently there are many technically legal yet unsavory views allowed under "f…

Exactly. I'm not going to claim there's an easy solution to any of this. The line between "valid political opinion" and "hurting someone" can be very thin indeed. Sometimes they overlap, and then what? All I'm saying is: we should be honest about these trade-offs, and not pretend there's such a thing as "absolute free speech". And I also think we'd better err on the side of allowing too much speech than on the side o…

Completely agreed. Although I'm not sure the balance of trade-offs needs to change due to recent events, I certainly believe it's worth discussing.

Re: The distinction between free speech as a legal right and cultural value

#339

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Just FYI, hate speech being free speech is an American thing. Other democracies in the world have frameworks for limiting/prioritizing basic rights, right to free speech included (take, for example, German moderation laws) and have not become a totalitarian dystopias yet. Sure, and America hasn't become a country of hate speech or devolved into tyranny yet either, despite what some claim, so do those laws actually…

> Sure, and America hasn't become a country of hate speech Hate speech spewed by the likes of Tucker Carlson caused a mass shooting like a week ago...

I'm sure that's one interpretation. And yet Tucker is the most watched cable news show last I checked, so clearly most Americans don't agree with your characterization of his speech.

Furthermore, drawing a causal link between Tucker and the shooter is speculative at best.

Re: The distinction between free speech as a legal right and cultural value

#340
post #320

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> > hate speech being free speech is an American thing > It's the constitution, innit? Is it? I wasn't aware that hate speech was explicitly singled out as protected in the Constitution. > Do people really think that speech that's likely to cause public disorder is OK? Public disorder, no. But innocent people getting heard? Well, maybe. Lots of speech that hurts innocent people is already banned. Things like libel/sl…

> Things like libel/slander. Those are civil offences; they're not "banned", the victim has to sue for damages. > Threats. Blackmail. Those are indeed banned, i.e. criminal. They are both effectively threats. It's a criminal act to threaten a criminal act. > Did that happen? That's a silly thing to arrest someone for. Oh yes, it did: https://www.standard.co.uk/news/uk/police-arrest-blank-paper... "Silly" is rather a…

> Those are civil offences; they're not "banned", the victim has to sue for damages.

Is that not still a form of punishment? And a reason why most people would refrain from saying these things?

> > Threats. Blackmail.

> Those are indeed banned, i.e. criminal. They are both effectively threats. It's a criminal act to threaten a criminal act.

A threat is a threat to do something illegal. Blackmail is a threat to do something that's often completely legal, but sufficiently embarrassing that it would still make the target change their behaviour.

But as with libel and slander, the fact that they're illegal doesn't mean they don't happen. In fact, there's plenty of people threatening others online. And often it takes a judge to decide whether or not that threat counts as a credible threat. And then there's indirect threats, where the threatener doesn't directly threaten, but directs others to do it. Possibly in an unspoken way. And sometimes the vague things someone says can still inspire a mob to storm the Capitol with a gallows from which to have the Vice President.

Where do you draw that line? And can you only draw it after people act on it? These issues are incredibly complex, and very context dependent. And pretending they're simple is going to make us ignore all the edge cases. And there's a lot of those.

Post reply on HN