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The distinction between free speech as a legal right and cultural value

thefire.org

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Re: The distinction between free speech as a legal right and cultural value

#271

If you are reading a piece about free speech and content moderation on platforms like Twitter, look to see if it meaningfully engages with the concepts of spam and porn, which are both fully legal speech, and both heavily moderated with little controversy. (This piece does not.) Why does this matter? Because free speech, free expression in general, is a means to express values and beliefs. Our values and beliefs are…

Irrelevant speech is noise. Freedom of speech is freedom to speak to those who might want to hear, not to push ads and spam and porn on those who don't want it. There's no freedom of speech in a night club. If there's noise you can't speak.

It doesn't stop with porn, if you're on a social platform to connect with friends and all you see is political things you don't care about, that's noise too.

If a social media platform doesn't let you supress things you don't want to see, that's a problem with the platform.

If a social media platform doesn't let you supress speach you don't want others to hear, problem is with you.

If you're trying to muddle the waters of free speech with false narratives and strawman arguments like spam and porn, that's just cheap manipulation.

This has nothing to do with values, if someone doesn't want to see porn, he should be able to avoid it, and if someone wants to see porn he should be able to see it. Spam is by definition something nobody wants to see.

Only collectivists and authoritarians would start going off on "society" values as if their values are superior enough to warrant forcing.

Re: The distinction between free speech as a legal right and cultural value

#272
post #108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why is spam always glossed over in these "principled defenses" of free speech? It's legal speech.

Imagine for a moment that the volume of spam is compared to the volume of oration. Unlimited volume is not permitted in free speech. That is a disruption to public life. There is no reason to assume that this theory would fail to be legitimized in courts. Spam is not legal in other arenas, i.e. phone calls & texts. The fact that the operators of spam bots are difficult to prosecute does not mean what they are doing h…

Spam restrictions aren't generally applied by the government, and therefore don't fall under the constitution. The law doesn't require anyone to listen to someone else's speech. It is not a violation of anyone's rights to discard their emails unread using an automated filter.

Re: The distinction between free speech as a legal right and cultural value

#273

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Most people in the world don't have Twitter accounts and get along perfectly fine. You need phone service to apply for most jobs, contact government emergency services, go to school. It's a far more essential service. Although the definition of a common carrier isn't necessarily that it is essential anyway. It's that it is offered explicitly as being available to the general public, not involving any sort of individu…

I think there’s lots of good reasons to consider Twitter and similar as common carriers: The presidents and major politicians of many nations communicate via Twitter. Major businesses, eg Gooogle and its subsidiary YouTube, only respond to customer service via Twitter, eg improper account bans. There are some businesses, eg YouTube content creators, who you can only contact through Twitter; and some businesses, eg ne…

Sure, the issue is that every time a political partisan or politically partisan organization gets banned from a service, they and their followers will always believe it's because of the party they're a member of, and not because they were being an asshole. It acts as cover to engage in any kind of behavior at all, as long as you're a partisan. That isn't what those protections were meant for.

Rules are enforced by imperfect detectors of infractions because there is no such thing as a perfect detector. No matter how careful a review process is, failures will always happen. Innocent people are convicted by real courts through decades of appeals in spite of all the due process. You will always be able to find some instances where a member of party A does exactly the same thing as a member of party B, but only one of them gets punished. Does this mean we should try the best we can and accept that we will fail a non-zero number of times, or should we never have rules instead because that's the only possible way to be fair?

I'm going to be perfectly honest here. I don't follow Twitter at all. I've never had an account. I haven't read an article from the NY Post that I can remember in probably 20 years. I don't actually care about this stuff and think it's silly internet drama that should not be dominating national headlines. So it's entirely possible Twitter really was biased here. I don't know. Organizations are not never in the wrong. When black people were banned from every lunch counter in 15 states, it wasn't an innocent mistake by organizations trying their best to exercise their right to freedom of association. When communists were purged from Hollywood, they were definitely targeted because of their party, not because they'd explicitly done anything.

But without stooping to the specifics of whether one single incident was right or wrong, I would like to agree that it is okay for a service like Twitter to have terms of service and remove content and block accounts that breech those terms. Legally, at least right now, they are not treated as a common carrier, but if that ever changes, one of those terms of service can't be "no Republicans," but that also doesn't mean no Republicans can ever be banned. If you think you can prove disparate impact in a court of law, have at it, but just be aware that you're in the ample company of every political partisan ever who believed themselves to be some unjustly persecuted minority being suppressed for just telling the truth. The fact that some small number really were doesn't do much to impact the overall probability distribution of holding that belief.

Re: The distinction between free speech as a legal right and cultural value

#274
post #244
post #190

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Greg Lukianoff also suggested drawing the content moderation line at legal speech [1]. > Why does this matter? Because free speech, free expression in general, is a means to express values and beliefs. Saying this does not convince people who are concerned about hate speech. Such individuals imagine that the government or the platform will, or can be coerced, to simply remove whatever they do not like. These folks, w…

> Saying this does not convince people who are concerned about hate speech. Such individuals imagine that the government or the platform will, or can be coerced, to simply remove whatever they do not like. These folks, who consider themselves among the majority, never imagine that they will one day be a minority, or that such power will then be used against them. Exactly. And it isn't even that difficult to imagine h…

> The "Defend Women" line is a perfect tactic for TERFs to use, and they use it early and often.

Yeah, it's wild. Meghan Murphy [1] has a lot of guests on who discuss this topic. Some of it is pretty eye opening because the issue is only briefly touched upon via established media, aside from right wing sources. I guess that just provides opportunity for independent journalists to grow by telling such stories. I never believed that other media would turn away stories based on ideology until I heard stories from child transitioners who later detransitioned. And I only got plugged into that by randomly reading commentary about Cloudflare blocking Kiwi Farms [2]. Anyway, it turns out that institutions, made up of humans, display human-like flaws. Who knew?

> The fact they could use hate speech laws to silence a minority is the troubling thing.

It is and it isn't. I think society largely agrees that, at least, most words are not violence. And while we do dip into pretty heavy censorship territory once in awhile, and it does breed a lot of distrust and hate, it also garners more support for free speech. It's clear to more and more every day that censorship, particularly the secretive censorship that pervades social media and IMO is the biggest issue which we should therefore tackle, does not work. Disinfo experts have been promising for years that just one more round of censorship and elections will finally, once and for all, kill off all hatred and discontent, just like people who claim AGI is just around the corner. It hasn't happened, it's not happening, and it's time to go back to our roots, free speech and counter speech.

[1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I0OLsb2TJyQ

[2] https://corinnacohn.substack.com/p/the-world-should-not-need...

Re: The distinction between free speech as a legal right and cultural value

#275
post #124
post #108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why is spam always glossed over in these "principled defenses" of free speech? It's legal speech.

Because it's not very interesting because nobody has a good faith reason to argue in favor allowing SPAM. I assume it's being used to demonstrate the arbitrary nature of what speech people would want to allow, but it's a bit pointless. SPAM falls in the category of things that arguably are simply abuse of the system, using it in an unintended way. SPAM is not discourse, or an ideology, or a belief. SPAM is a pattern…

Some people like to post a word or a short sentence or some kind of artwork many, many times, everywhere they can. They enjoy knowing their message is seen by many. For them, it's not pointless.

At what point does it become spam and we restrict what these people view as free speech?

Re: The distinction between free speech as a legal right and cultural value

#276
post #258

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> This is an argument against laws, corruption, and government. No, it's an argument for studying the history of law and understanding that some are good and some are bad. They don't come with a cover sheet saying so. You need to figure it out for yourself. > Laws can be written and misapplied. All the more reason to study them and give careful consideration to how they have been misapplied in the past. We're in agre…

> I think any anti hate speech laws are more experimental than the American experiment The modern American jurisprudence on speech is fairly recent, as I alluded to above. There's tons of cases through the 18th and 19th century where the supreme court upheld blasphemy and obscenity convictions, allowed the federal government to censor speech, favor Christian religion and churches over others, and even consider libel…

I'm quite lost on your overarching point.

Do you agree with how US jurisprudence has drawn the lines on free speech? If not, what would you do differently?

Re: The distinction between free speech as a legal right and cultural value

#277
post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You are being deliberately obtuse. No matter how one answers your question, most internet users still have unaccountable 3rd parties opaquely choosing who they communicate with [1]. Do you admit this is a problem, but you just don't see a solution compatible with the 1st amendment's freedom of association? Do you support the Civil Rights Act's restriction of freedom based on race and/or think it is constitutionally v…

> Do you support the Civil Rights Act's restriction of freedom based on race and/or think it is constitutionally valid? Sure, just as common carrier regulation is constitutionally valid. The Constitution isn't a suicide pact; the Founding Fathers very clearly did not intend it to be one. We've accepted a non-literal wording of the First and other amendments since the beginning. > Why would the same logic not hold for…

> Because being kicked off Twitter is hardly the same as not being able to dial 911

The Civil Rights Act also prevents Twitter (or any company) from banning users based on protected characteristics (e.g. race and sex). It is not remotely limited to critical services or common carriers.

Re: The distinction between free speech as a legal right and cultural value

#278

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you should stop ignoring the parts you don't accept, you're coming across as dishonest. Your line of argument ends in tyranny. "We must protect you for your own good, or better, the greater good." Specifically with the irony that while you decry "trust us," it is precisely what is required to accept your "moving of the needle a little bit."

> I think you should stop ignoring the parts you don't accept, you're coming across as dishonest. What parts? > Specifically with the irony that while you decry "trust us," it is precisely what is required to accept your "moving of the needle a little bit." Not at all because, I have not argued for any particular movement . What I'm asking for is a argument that the status quo is optimal that is more robust than "tru…

> I have not argued for any particular movement. What I'm asking for is a argument that the status quo is optimal

Why? Nobody said it's written in stone. Laws remain open to interpretation for as long as a judiciary exists.

> there are fairly good examples of the needle being in other places in other nations and it being, generally speaking, fine.

It sounds like you have a particular idea about what should be changed, yet you are reluctant to say which one, and you simultaneously want everyone replying to you to address all of those possibilities ("you aren't even engaging with them").

In other words, you are placing all responsibility upon your interlocutors to anticipate your thinking and none upon yourself.

Re: The distinction between free speech as a legal right and cultural value

#279

If you are reading a piece about free speech and content moderation on platforms like Twitter, look to see if it meaningfully engages with the concepts of spam and porn, which are both fully legal speech, and both heavily moderated with little controversy. (This piece does not.) Why does this matter? Because free speech, free expression in general, is a means to express values and beliefs. Our values and beliefs are…

Irrelevant speech is noise. Freedom of speech is freedom to speak to those who might want to hear, not to push ads and spam and porn on those who don't want it. There's no freedom of speech in a night club. If there's noise you can't speak. It doesn't stop with porn, if you're on a social platform to connect with friends and all you see is political things you don't care about, that's noise too. If a social media pla…

Nobody ever frames it has having someone censor what they see.

Everyone wants to censor what others see. Why is that?

Re: The distinction between free speech as a legal right and cultural value

#280

If you are reading a piece about free speech and content moderation on platforms like Twitter, look to see if it meaningfully engages with the concepts of spam and porn, which are both fully legal speech, and both heavily moderated with little controversy. (This piece does not.) Why does this matter? Because free speech, free expression in general, is a means to express values and beliefs. Our values and beliefs are…

Irrelevant speech is noise. Freedom of speech is freedom to speak to those who might want to hear, not to push ads and spam and porn on those who don't want it. There's no freedom of speech in a night club. If there's noise you can't speak. It doesn't stop with porn, if you're on a social platform to connect with friends and all you see is political things you don't care about, that's noise too. If a social media pla…

> Only collectivists and authoritarians would start going off on "society" values as if their values are superior enough to warrant forcing.

Individuals can have values. I have disagreements with the parent comment [1], but free speech is certainly something that people value.

Disagreement tends to come in regarding what we each value, and the hope is that free speech is a shared one.

[1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=33827292

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