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The distinction between free speech as a legal right and cultural value

thefire.org

181–190 of 428 posts

Re: The distinction between free speech as a legal right and cultural value

#181
post #169

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Free speech is about allowing any idea to be expressed. Spam is not an idea, but a way of expressing something, so it's not inherently against free speech to restrict it.

Yet many will complain that what they call "hurt feelings" are irrelevant regarding whether or not their statements were OK and should be welcome. What separates a "way of expressing" from a true "idea"? "Abuse" is not an idea, but a way of expressing something? "You suck" is something of an "idea," but "I hope you die" or "watch out for your kids" if it's not a literally true threat? Not so much... And if it IS a tr…

These are all heavily subjective and often used as a code for certain opinions. In current political discourse, “hateful” usually means “disagrees with the woke ideology”, so a statement like “kill all white people” would not be considered hateful, whereas “children under 18 shouln't be allowed to take unnecessary cosmetic surgery” would.

Re: The distinction between free speech as a legal right and cultural value

#182

I'm curious why these discussions sidestep the fact that a company has a fiduciary duty to maximize shareholder value. It is understandable, from a shareholder perspective, to not want your investment's brand next to potentially unsavory content. It seems that there is a real and unresolved tension between a culture of free speech (which I wholeheartedly endorse) and modern-day capitalism.

A publicly held corporation does have a fiduciary duty to maximize shareholder value, but managers often do things that they can argue might maximize shareholder value in opposition to what the shareholders believe. The managers almost always get their way, even when they turn out to have been wrong, or even when they never sincerely meant to maximize shareholder value. Sometimes shareholders rebel and sue. Sometimes the lawsuits work out in the shareholders' interests.

As to the specific matter here, Twitter is now a privately held corporation. It has no such fiduciary duty. The lenders can presumably call their loans if they think Musk will bankrupt the company. Musk can legitimately believe that his vision regarding free speech will maximize the company's value, and he could be right or wrong, or he could be making it all up as he goes and not be sincere about anything, and he gets to. I'm not a mind reader, so I won't hazard a guess as to what he thinks about freedom of speech and profitability.

Re: The distinction between free speech as a legal right and cultural value

#183

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Political speech, especially unpopular political speech, is among the speech that I think is most deserving of free speech protections. I specifically want the political speech of the people most ideologically opposed to my point of view to be able to make their speech, free from government intrusion on it. I will almost surely not like it, but I will defend vigorously their right to say it.

What if my political speech is inherently violent? Would I be allowed to support a political group or ideology that directly called for ethnic cleansing?

Yes. And other people should be allowed hn criticize it.

Re: The distinction between free speech as a legal right and cultural value

#184

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I made a mistake but everyone knows what picture I'm talking about. It's not a lie. So it was a child carrying a doll that had BDSM gear. But that's funny cus if the girl was the one in BDSM gear, that would make it wrong? Is that the line?

I'm curious why, if you believed you made a mistake, you didn't edit your comment at the time to avoid propagating misinformation (as the 2 hour edit window was still open when you made this response acknowledging it as a mistake)? I personally am not familiar with this photo and don't really want to see it, so yes, your comment could have mislead me.

There's no ulterior motive. I just messed up. I fixed it as soon as I got called out on it without objection and I left it there so people can see what the issue was.

If you are going to participate in this discussion, you need to keep up. You're attributing malice where there is none. That means you have to see the picture.

I'm not saying you can't say anything, just that I'm going to dismiss you out of hand.

Re: The distinction between free speech as a legal right and cultural value

#185

I'm curious why these discussions sidestep the fact that a company has a fiduciary duty to maximize shareholder value. It is understandable, from a shareholder perspective, to not want your investment's brand next to potentially unsavory content. It seems that there is a real and unresolved tension between a culture of free speech (which I wholeheartedly endorse) and modern-day capitalism.

Companies don’t have a duty to maximize shareholder value. See here, for one discussion: https://www.nytimes.com/roomfordebate/2015/04/16/what-are-co...

Profit != value.

Re: The distinction between free speech as a legal right and cultural value

#187
post #181

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yet many will complain that what they call "hurt feelings" are irrelevant regarding whether or not their statements were OK and should be welcome. What separates a "way of expressing" from a true "idea"? "Abuse" is not an idea, but a way of expressing something? "You suck" is something of an "idea," but "I hope you die" or "watch out for your kids" if it's not a literally true threat? Not so much... And if it IS a tr…

These are all heavily subjective and often used as a code for certain opinions. In current political discourse, “hateful” usually means “disagrees with the woke ideology”, so a statement like “kill all white people” would not be considered hateful, whereas “children under 18 shouln't be allowed to take unnecessary cosmetic surgery” would.

You carefully avoid saying that "spam" isn't subjective, but if you think it is, your reply wouldn't be relevant, so: I doubt you'll have any luck trying to "objectively" establish a criteria for spam classification that nobody disagrees with.

Or what about the threat examples, since you claim all those categories were subjective? You didn't engage with that one, or many of the others. "I know your kids go to [specific school], watch out"? Subjective? "I'm going to kill you and your family?" Subjective or straight up threat? How about mockery or insults? "Your post is stupid and you are stupid?" Is it subjective that that's insulting? So is it an "idea" or just a particular way of saying I disagree with you? "You are clearly politically motivated and not arguing in good faith?" Maybe that one is actually an idea!

Re: The distinction between free speech as a legal right and cultural value

#188

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The thing is I just don't care how you feel. You haven't explained how the kid can consent to this photo shoot or why it isn't sexual abuse. I want to know if you think it's ok if the kid wears BDSM gear. Yes? No?

Why do you want to know that when you've acknowledged in a parallel thread that that wasn't what happened? It's hard for me to read this any other way than a deflection so that you can discuss a different set of events, which didn't happen, where you feel your arguments would fair better. Given that we're already talking about a hot-button issue which is the subject of conspiracy theories, that seems dangerous.

Yeah, you're trying to catch me on a typo, but it's not gonna work cus I already acknowledged it.

I do know I hit a nerve with that particular scenario. I got all I wanted. Ok, so let's just move on. Let's get to the fun stuff.

So the line stopped at her wearing the BDSM gear. Why? Why not cross that line? Why is it ok for the bear to wear BDSM gear and for her not to?

Re: The distinction between free speech as a legal right and cultural value

#189
post #5

Freedom of association captures the idea of freedom of speech better than freedom of speech itself, I think. Private parties are (with some number of government constraints) free to pick who to work with, who to play with, and who to talk with, and who they don't want to do anything with.

Unless you choose to not bake a cake for a gay marriage. Freedom of association applies both ways.

Not if you don't want to get downvoted lol. The people in the protected categories get to force you to associate with them, it's really simple.

Re: The distinction between free speech as a legal right and cultural value

#190

If you are reading a piece about free speech and content moderation on platforms like Twitter, look to see if it meaningfully engages with the concepts of spam and porn, which are both fully legal speech, and both heavily moderated with little controversy. (This piece does not.) Why does this matter? Because free speech, free expression in general, is a means to express values and beliefs. Our values and beliefs are…

Greg Lukianoff also suggested drawing the content moderation line at legal speech [1].

> Why does this matter? Because free speech, free expression in general, is a means to express values and beliefs.

Saying this does not convince people who are concerned about hate speech. Such individuals imagine that the government or the platform will, or can be coerced, to simply remove whatever they do not like. These folks, who consider themselves among the majority, never imagine that they will one day be a minority, or that such power will then be used against them. The truth is that all of us are being moderated all the time on social media, but that's hard to demonstrate in all cases at all times, which is why the secrecy of such moderation tends to be effective for a period.

Drawing the line at legal speech is important is because words are not violent, and moving it anywhere else leads to more disagreement. Other people's words, which you may find offensive and which may cause real psychological harm, are still discretionary. Some may find them harmful, others will not. Laws aren't supposed to be subjectively interpreted. The exception for when speech can be punished by law is defined by Nadine Strossen as words that "in context, directly causes specific imminent serious harm" [2].

> No one values spam, so no one writes hand-wringing essays about whether it is ok to kick spam and spammers off social media.

That's not really what happens though. Spam is a useful mechanism to get platforms to build more tools that secretly remove content. I mention it in my talk at 28:00 [3]. These new censorship tools are mostly used to suppress speech from individuals, not spammers.

> Most people recognize that porn, even if they like it, is not something that should be in everyone’s faces all the time, so there is little existential concern for free speech as a whole when porn is excluded or hidden from some contexts.

That's not true, "obscenity" has always been under attack. Look up Anthony Comstock [4] [5], a largely successful crusader against all things he found obscene. He didn't stop at pornography, he went after literature describing contraceptives, abortion, and even people who just criticized him. It was just like how today's radical trans movement seeks to remove voices of detransitioners from social media [6]. It doesn't fit their world view, they find it offensive and they don't want you to see it. That said, there is broader agreement about keeping pornography away from children.

The vast amounts of censorship today, most often secretly done, cuts out the middle and enables both extremes to isolate themselves in their own bubbles. Instead of trying to baby-proof our world, we should be world-proofing ourselves [7]

> You cannot expect to make sense of free speech if you try to ignore other values.

Nobody's saying we should ignore other values. If you hold this view then you've misinterpreted the constitution, whose 9th amendment [8] states that rights are not to be held in conflict with each other.

What should be said here is, you cannot make sense of free speech if you do not examine its history and how it's been relentlessly defended, not just in the US, but everywhere possible for arguably the whole of human history, with varying degrees of success.

[1] https://www.thefire.org/news/blogs/eternally-radical-idea/op...

[2] https://books.google.com/books?&hl=en&id=whBQDwAAQBAJ&q=in+c...

[3] https://cantsayanything.win/2022-10-transparent-moderation/

[4] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anthony_Comstock

[5] https://play.google.com/store/books/details/The_Mind_of_the_...

[6] https://archive.ph/1NeiV#selection-1513.7-1513.57

[7] https://www.bendigoadvertiser.com.au/story/76283/world-proof...

[8] https://constitution.congress.gov/constitution/amendment-9/?...

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