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TSMC to make 4nm chips in Arizona for Apple, AMD, Nvidia

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Re: TSMC to make 4nm chips in Arizona for Apple, AMD, Nvidia

#461
post #354

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Automotive industry is still using 90nm chips. It's not even the generation before the current one. They have long production runs and require stability, and they also prefer to use standardized parts across many production runs. Defense also uses older chips. Don't ask what kind of chips are in Amraam missiles or the F-35 -- although the F-35 is getting a technology refresh now (after a 14 year production run). Only…

That's what I thought. If consumer products tend to use the bleeding edge, which will be the state-of-the-art chips produced in Taiwan, then I still don't get: 1. What's so exciting about a prev-gen fab possibly being completed in 2024? 2. Who will buy the chips produced by the 4nm Arizona fab, and why? The only plausible answer offered for 1 in this thread has been that it's too difficult to jump straight into the b…

Starting in 2022, the high-volume iPhone has been switched to the N-1 generation SoC, while the bleeding edge SoC is reserved for the lower volume iPhone Pro/Max.

Re: TSMC to make 4nm chips in Arizona for Apple, AMD, Nvidia

#462
post #415

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> TSMC with its global influence has been a huge factor for guaranteeing safety of the island and peace in the Taiwan strait. This narrative is echoed around the internet, but if you study the actual history of the Taiwan Strait Crises (which started before the semiconductor was invented), it never comes up in official discussion or analysis. See Kissinger, for example. Cynically, this narrative was possibly promoted…

> Cynically, this narrative was possibly promoted by the USG/Taiwan-lobby to put lipstick on what has always been a naked display of power politics. I also suspect this narrative is at the very least supported if not conceived by Taiwan as propaganda. But we don't need to be cynical. What this narrative does is establish in the minds of Americans a shared interest in Taiwan and, arguably, even a shared identity. That…

> If the U.S. aggressively defends Taiwan in an invasion attempt, it won't be because of TSMC and fears of a chip shortage; it'll be because the American public has become invested in the idea of a free and democratic Taiwan,

That, and the concern about China’s long-term ambitions, and what sort of precedent letting them take Taiwan unchecked would set.

Re: TSMC to make 4nm chips in Arizona for Apple, AMD, Nvidia

#463

Great news for the US. Great news for Apple, AMD, and Nvidia. Not so good news for Taiwan. The fact that the whole tech world is dependent on chips produced in Hsinchu is a huge advantage for the safety of Taiwan. Moving the fabs and talent further away from the island will not benefit the people of Taiwan at all. TSMC with its global influence has been a huge factor for guaranteeing safety of the island and peace in…

>Great news for the US. Great news for Apple, AMD, and Nvidia. Not so good news for Taiwan. The fact that the whole tech world is dependent on chips produced in Hsinchu is a huge advantage for the safety of Taiwan. Moving the fabs and talent further away from the island will not benefit the people of Taiwan at all. Naive question, can we relocate the people of Taiwan?

> Naive question, can we relocate the people of Taiwan?

Relocating entire populations is considered a crime against humanity.

Re: TSMC to make 4nm chips in Arizona for Apple, AMD, Nvidia

#464

Earlier quoted context omitted.

*China (Best China, not to be confused with West China) Great for Arizona. Hope it brings them jobs.

> Great for Arizona. Hope it brings them jobs. And water!

Arizona water is being used by U.S. subsidized foreign-owned farms.

https://www.azcentral.com/in-depth/news/local/arizona-enviro...

Re: TSMC to make 4nm chips in Arizona for Apple, AMD, Nvidia

#465

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Great news for the US. Great news for Apple, AMD, and Nvidia. Not so good news for Taiwan. The fact that the whole tech world is dependent on chips produced in Hsinchu is a huge advantage for the safety of Taiwan. Moving the fabs and talent further away from the island will not benefit the people of Taiwan at all. Naive question, can we relocate the people of Taiwan?

> Naive question, can we relocate the people of Taiwan? Relocating entire populations is considered a crime against humanity.

Sitting here wondering why everyone is assuming I meant an involuntary relocation.. which is ludicrous

Re: TSMC to make 4nm chips in Arizona for Apple, AMD, Nvidia

#466
post #289

Earlier quoted context omitted.

what are the alternatives?

TSMC, a company whose expertise lies in precision machining and assembly with the handling of dangerous chemicals, could make The Bomb.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taiwan_and_weapons_of_mass_des...

Technically, since Taiwan isn’t recognised as a country they can’t be a signatory of the nuclear non-proliferation treaty. They only thing stopping them developing nuclear weapons is political pressure.

Re: TSMC to make 4nm chips in Arizona for Apple, AMD, Nvidia

#467

Earlier quoted context omitted.

TSMC expects to begin mass production of 3nm chips in its Taiwan fabs by 2023 Q4: https://seekingalpha.com/article/4546779-tsmc-no-3nm-soon This isn't my field, but I'm not sure what's the excitement about an Arizona plant that will optimistically start production a year later with an older process.

There is still a lot of demand for the not-latest-generation, "long tail" fab processes. Much of the long tail manufacturing was (is?) what the chip shortage was about, rather than the current generation. A good example is the automotive industry. It doesn't typically move quickly or frequently onto newer generation processes as that requires R&D time and other expenses. However, these have been some of the worst sho…

The PS5 is based on a 7nm architecure.

Re: TSMC to make 4nm chips in Arizona for Apple, AMD, Nvidia

#468

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure, except original comment also highlights that the incentives of destroying TSMC is backwards. It's PRC who benefits most from denying US access to TW semi supply chains or engineers not vice versa. Denying TW to US closes relative semi gap for PRC, leveraging PRC control of TSMC in case of successfuly invasion to compel US to lift sanctions also closes relative semi gap for PRC. US has leverage via sanctions dur…

But this is missing the obvious. Yes the US would prefer being able to maintain its tech advantage over China by continuing production and receiving of state of the art chips. And this is clearly better for them than choosing that gap by destroying TSMC fab. But if China takes over TW, that's not an option. The options are either flatten the gap or flip the gap in China's favor as it now controls those chips while th…

> The options

The obvious option in event of PRC control is everyone deferring to mutual leverage, where US controls fab inputs, TW controls outputs, PRC negotiating access to % of high end production by controlling island. Meanwhile buys both US and PRC time to secure independant semi chain, TW gets to still profit off semi, much like pre techwar arrangment. That's the strategically rare win-win-win scenario where everyone gains / avoids loss vs having accessible leading edge setback 20 years. Of course PRC wins most in this arrangment, and US/TW relatively loses, but if PRC wins in TW scenario vs US, that's going to be least of worries / concessions. The least obvious option is US deciding to scorch earth tech that supports their most competitive high tech industries, responsible for huge % of competitive advantage, especially if that leaves PRC the biggest producer of mature nodes (where things are trending). Even less sensible considering long term timeline after which experts believes PRC can reach semblance of semi parity.

This is short/medium term balance / interest calculation irrespective of the deal - which I didn't comment on - substantial capacity won't shift off TW in the timelines US forecast PRC will make move. Leading edge isn't particularly relelvant to defense hardware ends which use mature nodes, nor does anyone project long fight with how irreplaceable modern platforms are. It's why PRC (and chip partners US is trying to coerce into export controls) views Oct chip curbs as attack on their commercial sector, not military since PRC also have small batch 7nm production capability.

> TW also sees its best interests

It's also obvious "best" TW interest is to hedge having continued leverage over being leading ledge supplier regardless of who wins. There is no scenario where giving away their silicon dominance makes sense, unless coerced to, which is why US had to unilaterally announce export controls - because CHIPS4 partners weren't biting and actively pushing back. Least of all because no one is sure TW can win local war against PRC. Wealthy TW industrialist/elites/chip talent would rather be wealthy under PRC control after war then be fruit farmers because their industry got glassed. Read between line of Morris Chang stating US efforts to reshore chips manufacturing doomed to fail - it's not commentary on US talent - but TW isn't ceding industry to be Americanized. IMO don't expect these plants to launch without hitch. Prolonged war is probably least in TW interests because island simply can't sustain past a few months on domestic resources. There's reason TW defense posture is not prepping for prolonged war like US wants, deep down leadership and industry knows best interest for TW is to survive short/sharp war as developed economy and work with whoever wins.

> strengthening US defense's tech position

Except, again, TW offshoring leading edge fabs doesn't substantively strengthen US defense indy that depend on mature nodes with respect to PRC war. As stated, US fabs will STILL depend on TW inputs for forseeable future - it's not just ASML that's bottle neck - niche suppliers and expertise will be stuck on TW long term. Also consider "partners" pushing back on unilateral US curbs or SKR, JP building out their own indigenous defense industry - very few are actually interested in giving/strengthining US further leverage especially at their cost. And let's be real, fabs aren't going to be rebuilt on TW if they get leveled when they can be reconstructed in more secure locations.

Re: TSMC to make 4nm chips in Arizona for Apple, AMD, Nvidia

#469

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's universally well known that Asian workers work harder and can be paid less. It's not just about intels capabilities. It's about economic wage standards. The cost is just too high in the US. That being said tsmc workers in Taiwan are by far more capable then Intel this is proven by the 3nm process of which Intel is completely incapable of achieving.

I always feel there's some implicit racism or belief in cultural superiority or something at play in these discussions. Anyone who has gone to grad school can see pretty plainly that the top schools are stuffed with Chinese and Indian nationals. They're capable and they work hard. Some of them, not a small number, go back home. Further, western industry set up shop in Asia for their own reasons and brought their expe…

> Anyone who has gone to grad school can see pretty plainly that the top schools are stuffed with Chinese and Indian nationals. They're capable and they work hard.

People in grad school tend to be hard working and smart, that’s how they got there. Hypothesis: foreign nationals have to be even smarter and harder-working to secure places in US universities, hence the stereotype.

Re: TSMC to make 4nm chips in Arizona for Apple, AMD, Nvidia

#470

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Long sigted. The investment starts from scratch. Why not invest in some places cheaper? Why not invest in a place that has better expertise? Overall the long term vision is to wrestle some control away from China. That is the long term bet the US and tsmc are ultimately making and what's driving the decision. But economically this is a bad bet.

The why is obvious. Not having vital infra solely in the hands of a potential enemy is strategy 101. Economics are but one factor of many.

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