Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

The distinction between free speech as a legal right and cultural value

thefire.org

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

11–20 of 428 posts

Re: The distinction between free speech as a legal right and cultural value

#11

Post by ceejayoz »

throwawaydad12 wrote: post #8
ceejayoz wrote: post #6

> The popular radio program “On the Media” feared Musk’s support for free speech would lead to a free-for-all environment rife with child pornography. But that’s a strawman: child pornography is illegal. This is itself a strawman. No one thinks Musk will permit it on Twitter. The gutting of the moderation teams who tackle it is the concern. An underenforced rule is often not a very effective one.

Quoted post unavailable.

Again, it’s not about whether or not he wants the stuff on Twitter. If you fire all the staff who find it, handle user reports of it, and remove it, the end result is the same.

Re: The distinction between free speech as a legal right and cultural value

#12

Post by autoexec »

deathanatos wrote: post #4

And what of freedom of association as a right and cultural value?

Exactly! I should be able to join or leave groups discussing any sort of topic or view point I like on social media platforms without having my options limited or my views censored.

If I don't want to associate with someone I can unfollow them, unsubscribe from their subreddit, block them etc.

What matters is that it's my choice to do that. We shouldn't have that choice made for us by the people running online platforms.

Re: The distinction between free speech as a legal right and cultural value

#13

Post by Amezarak »

ceejayoz wrote: post #6

> The popular radio program “On the Media” feared Musk’s support for free speech would lead to a free-for-all environment rife with child pornography. But that’s a strawman: child pornography is illegal. This is itself a strawman. No one thinks Musk will permit it on Twitter. The gutting of the moderation teams who tackle it is the concern. An underenforced rule is often not a very effective one.

At least some activists are saying that since the takeover, the moderation of CSAM has been dramatically improved after complaints had been falling on deaf ears for years. There are complaints that the old moderation team was ignoring clear and well-documented reports.

https://twitter.com/elizableu/status/1566255230374842369

https://twitter.com/elizableu/status/1594137408186073089

What's shocking is that apparently Twitter has had a massive CSAM problem for years and Twitter's crack moderation team apparently did very little about it, not even banning hashtags reported to them repeatedly. And none of this got attention until Musk bought Twitter.

[removed section about addition of new reporting option]

I say this as someone who is not in the slightest a Musk fan.

Re: The distinction between free speech as a legal right and cultural value

#14

Post by anigbrowl »

ceejayoz wrote: post #6

> The popular radio program “On the Media” feared Musk’s support for free speech would lead to a free-for-all environment rife with child pornography. But that’s a strawman: child pornography is illegal. This is itself a strawman. No one thinks Musk will permit it on Twitter. The gutting of the moderation teams who tackle it is the concern. An underenforced rule is often not a very effective one.

[flagged]

Re: The distinction between free speech as a legal right and cultural value

#15

Post by pixl97 »

autoexec wrote: post #12
deathanatos wrote: post #4

And what of freedom of association as a right and cultural value?

Exactly! I should be able to join or leave groups discussing any sort of topic or view point I like on social media platforms without having my options limited or my views censored. If I don't want to associate with someone I can unfollow them, unsubscribe from their subreddit, block them etc. What matters is that it's my choice to do that. We shouldn't have that choice made for us by the people running online platfo…

Um what?

So me and my buddy Tim are going to come to your house and talk about how much you suck.

Autoexec: But this is MY private property.

So yes, So are online platforms. They can kick you out at any time they want and you can pound sand. If you don't like it set up own server online to freely associate. You don't get to demand their resources. You don't get access to their network.

Re: The distinction between free speech as a legal right and cultural value

#16

Post by autoexec »

ceejayoz wrote: post #6

> The popular radio program “On the Media” feared Musk’s support for free speech would lead to a free-for-all environment rife with child pornography. But that’s a strawman: child pornography is illegal. This is itself a strawman. No one thinks Musk will permit it on Twitter. The gutting of the moderation teams who tackle it is the concern. An underenforced rule is often not a very effective one.

All online platforms need to have moderators to prevent things like spam and illegal content. That doesn't mean that they can't also uphold the idea of free speech principles though.

Musk really went crazy with cutting staff, but I'm not sure if it was because he wrongly thought he needed to cut the moderation teams in order to support free speech or if he just did it because moderation is expensive.

Re: The distinction between free speech as a legal right and cultural value

#17

Post by aaronbrethorst »

pixl97 wrote: post #15
autoexec wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Exactly! I should be able to join or leave groups discussing any sort of topic or view point I like on social media platforms without having my options limited or my views censored. If I don't want to associate with someone I can unfollow them, unsubscribe from their subreddit, block them etc. What matters is that it's my choice to do that. We shouldn't have that choice made for us by the people running online platfo…

Um what? So me and my buddy Tim are going to come to your house and talk about how much you suck. Autoexec: But this is MY private property. So yes, So are online platforms. They can kick you out at any time they want and you can pound sand. If you don't like it set up own server online to freely associate. You don't get to demand their resources. You don't get access to their network.

Alex Pareene on the subject from 2018: https://splinternews.com/if-you-truly-care-about-speech-you-...

Re: The distinction between free speech as a legal right and cultural value

#18

Post by glyphosate »

"I cannot contemplate human affairs, without laughing or crying. I choose to laugh. When People talk of the Freedom of Writing Speaking or thinking, I cannot choose but laugh. No such thing ever existed. No such thing now exists: but I hope it will exist, But it must be hundreds of years after you and I Shall write and Speak no more."

-John Adams, letter to Thomas Jefferson, 1817

https://founders.archives.gov/documents/Adams/99-02-02-6790

Re: The distinction between free speech as a legal right and cultural value

#19

Post by ceejayoz »

Amezarak wrote: post #13
ceejayoz wrote: post #6

> The popular radio program “On the Media” feared Musk’s support for free speech would lead to a free-for-all environment rife with child pornography. But that’s a strawman: child pornography is illegal. This is itself a strawman. No one thinks Musk will permit it on Twitter. The gutting of the moderation teams who tackle it is the concern. An underenforced rule is often not a very effective one.

At least some activists are saying that since the takeover, the moderation of CSAM has been dramatically improved after complaints had been falling on deaf ears for years. There are complaints that the old moderation team was ignoring clear and well-documented reports. https://twitter.com/elizableu/status/1566255230374842369 https://twitter.com/elizableu/status/1594137408186073089 What's shocking is that apparently T…

That thread is debunked in the comments; the CSAM report option predates Musk.

https://twitter.com/ChronicBabak/status/1594762640357982208

Re: The distinction between free speech as a legal right and cultural value

#20

Post by autoexec »

mech765 wrote: post #5

Freedom of association captures the idea of freedom of speech better than freedom of speech itself, I think. Private parties are (with some number of government constraints) free to pick who to work with, who to play with, and who to talk with, and who they don't want to do anything with.

> Private parties are (with some number of government constraints) free to pick who to work with, who to play with, and who to talk with, and who they don't want to do anything with.

This is so true. The problem we have now is that online platforms are preventing us from making those choices for ourselves. We're being told we're not allowed to talk to certain types of people, often for ideological reasons.

Online platforms shouldn't limit our choices, they should empower us to find whatever content we want and block/remove content we aren't interested in.

Post reply on HN