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Gut epithelial barrier damage caused by dishwasher detergents and rinse aids

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Re: Gut epithelial barrier damage caused by dishwasher detergents and rinse aids

#81

Post by djpr »

yamtaddle wrote: post #43
casion wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Fill the salt? Configure for water hardness? I've never heard of either of these things before. Certainly not things on my, relatively fancy, dishwasher.

Ditto, no clue what either of those mean. Never, ever heard of adding salt to a dishwasher, certainly. Not in new ones, not in ones from the bad ol' days when they used way more water but actually worked.

I have a new one (a few years old) and yes there's a compartment for salt. My previous one did as well. I'm in Europe (Spain) if that helps. I don't go to any special store to buy them, any old Lidl or other supermarket has it. Where you from where this isn't a thing?

Re: Gut epithelial barrier damage caused by dishwasher detergents and rinse aids

#82

Post by SoftTalker »

giraffe_lady wrote: post #64
kwhitefoot wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Many years ago I worked as a skivvy in a hotel kitchen. We never used any detergent for the crockery, it just used extremely hot water. The dishes seemed very clean and they dried very rapidly.

How... many... years ago? When I started cooking professionally in the 80s three-stage hand wash had already been required by health codes everywhere for decades. I've seen all kinds of shit but every kitchen at least has the setup and chemicals for that for health inspections if nothing else. In practice even the sketchiest restaurants will have quats even if they only fill it once a day.

GP is talking about a commercial dishwasher. You can't hand wash hot enough -- you'd get serious burns. So anything you hand wash needs the three-stage wash, rinse, sanitize process with detergent and chemical sanitizer.

Re: Gut epithelial barrier damage caused by dishwasher detergents and rinse aids

#84

Post by hammock »

SoftTalker wrote: post #77
hammock wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you use a rinse aid in your dishwasher I bet you’d find harmful results. Home detergent does contain AES (sulfates) but it gets rinsed pretty well. However if you use rinse aid, the rinse water itself has surfactants (AES, more sulfates), which will remain on the dishware- that’s the whole point actually, so the water beads off.

The rinse aid prevents beading, actually. Beading is what leaves the spots.

Yes I had it backwards. It’s the old “add soap to water to break the surface tension” kids science experiment: https://youtu.be/ho0o7H6dXSU

Re: Gut epithelial barrier damage caused by dishwasher detergents and rinse aids

#85

Post by lotsofpulp »

xxpor wrote: post #71
jasonhansel wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's a special liquid you put in a compartment in your dishwasher to make it work better. I don't bother; I've tried it and haven't observed any effects.

It really depends on if you have a dishwasher that relies on evap for drying, or an explicit heating element. The latter is becoming more rare as time goes on.

How would dishes dry then? Is there at least a fan providing air flow?

Re: Gut epithelial barrier damage caused by dishwasher detergents and rinse aids

#86

Post by throwaway09223 »

PragmaticPulp wrote: post #36
RjQoLCOSwiIKfpm wrote: post #22

Rinse aid is completely unneeded if you properly maintain and use your dishwasher. I never use any, and my dishes are completely spotless. 30 years old dishwasher, super hard water. Specifically, you should: - always fill the salt of the dishwasher's water softener once it's empty. It cannot soften the water if it doesn't get cleaned by the salt. If the water is not softened you will get spots. EDIT: Apparently US fo…

For everyone confused by this comment: In some countries you might find dishwashers with a sort of built-in water softener: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dishwasher_salt It's not common in the United States. Some all-in-one detergent packets might contain some amount of dishwasher salt, though.

"It's not common in the United States."

If US folks are looking for this feature, it can be found on higher end Bosch dishwashers in the US.

I have very hard water and a Bosch benchmark series. The water softener makes a huge difference. I don't want a whole-house softener because I don't enjoy the feel of softened water in the shower.

Re: Gut epithelial barrier damage caused by dishwasher detergents and rinse aids

#88

Post by xxpor »

lotsofpulp wrote: post #85
xxpor wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It really depends on if you have a dishwasher that relies on evap for drying, or an explicit heating element. The latter is becoming more rare as time goes on.

How would dishes dry then? Is there at least a fan providing air flow?

This is why rinse aid is critical, you have to minimize the amount of water on the dishes. The extremely hot water tends to heat up the dishes enough so they retain enough heat to evaporate off the rest of the water. Plastic stuff like cups tends to stay pretty wet since they don't have the thermal capacity of metal or porcelain. A big advantage with this design, other than the energy savings, is that you don't have to worry about putting plastic stuff on the bottom rack, since there's no localized source of heat that can melt them.

Re: Gut epithelial barrier damage caused by dishwasher detergents and rinse aids

#89

Post by pfdietz »

throwaway09223 wrote: post #86
PragmaticPulp wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For everyone confused by this comment: In some countries you might find dishwashers with a sort of built-in water softener: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dishwasher_salt It's not common in the United States. Some all-in-one detergent packets might contain some amount of dishwasher salt, though.

"It's not common in the United States." If US folks are looking for this feature, it can be found on higher end Bosch dishwashers in the US. I have very hard water and a Bosch benchmark series. The water softener makes a huge difference. I don't want a whole-house softener because I don't enjoy the feel of softened water in the shower.

We had a Bosch dishwasher with a built-in water softener when we lived in Lake in the Hills, IL, a suburb of Chicago. The municipal water there (from wells) was extremely hard and it made a big difference.

We now have a Bosch dishwasher in another house in NY state. The water is not hard (it's from one of the Finger Lakes), and the dishwasher does not have a softener, but we like the brand. After reading this story we looked up how to tweak the rinse aid dispenser and turned it down from "5" to "1".

Re: Gut epithelial barrier damage caused by dishwasher detergents and rinse aids

#90

Post by pfdietz »

DwnVoteHoneyPot wrote: post #76
mauvehaus wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'll give you an upvote for that little dive into Wikipedia. For those who haven't already swum as deep, the article on ion exchange resins[0] is also worthwhile. Turns out they are used for reprocessing spent nuclear fuel as well as softening water. Plus a few other things. [0] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ion-exchange_resin

I did bad in high school chemistry, I never could understand this stuff. First, the ion exchange resin beads are washed with Na+ which bind to the beads. Second, the hard water is run through the beads and bad stuff like Mg2+ has a stronger attraction to the beads than Na+, so the Na+ is pushed off and Mg2+ binds to beads. The resulting water out of tap is softer because Mg2+ is out, but saltier because Na+ is in. Th…

The concentration matters. Concentrated Na will displace Mg, but in the Na concentration in the tap water Mg will displace Na. If you had a concentrated brine with large amounts of both sodium and magnesium, the Mg would win.
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