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Brave launches private search ads

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Re: Brave launches private search ads

#171
post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Or Firefox. Especially with Manifest v3 looming.

LibreWolf is just a Firefox with telemetry removed.

Correct me if I am wrong, but can't we just remove all Firefox telemetry by unchecking these options in Privacy & Security:

1) Allow Firefox to send technical and interaction data to Mozilla

2) Allow Firefox to make personalized extension recommendations

3) Allow Firefox to install and run studies

4) Allow Firefox to send backlogged crash reports on your behalf

I understand they're selected by default so they're collecting data on many unaware users, but for anyone on HN, I am confident they have probably deselected all of them.

Re: Brave launches private search ads

#172

Not the biggest fan of Brave myself, but they seem to actually get extra points in my eyes for adding the paid option. It's not like you can pay $3 to Google to get them to stop surveilling you. On a bigger note, monetizing search without ads seem to be a pretty tricky business model. Especially if you want to move beyond being a niche product; even an average HN reader would be hard to convince to pay for a regular…

Make it a 501(c)(3) non-profit, like the Internet Archive or Wikipedia.

Or at least a Social Purpose Corporation like Purism.

Re: Brave launches private search ads

#173

Ads seem to be a modern virus that infects everything. Everyone who claims "no ads", eventually turns their back on that once they get big enough, even companies with more than enough money from their own products (e.g. Apple, Netflix). I've never seen anything so powerful. I guess it comes down to "no business would say no to free money", but it really is incredible.

>Ads seem to be a modern virus that infects everything. Everyone who claims "no ads", eventually turns their back on that once they get big enough, even companies with more than enough money from their own products (e.g. Apple, Netflix). TBF at least it's better than the status quo of the late 90's to early 2000s, when the revenue model was malware and actual viruses rather than ad supported.

> TBF at least it's better than the status quo of the late 90's to early 2000s, when the revenue model was malware and actual viruses rather than ad supported.

Back then we called software that phoned home to check for updates spyware and it was to be avoided. The very idea that a random offline program on my system would know when I was connected to the internet, and would be collecting my IP address was unacceptable. Now it's standard practice.

The revenue model back then was shareware. You get the software, it mostly works, and you send a check to some PO box to get a full version. It wasn't terrible. I don't remember too many companies outright shipping malware and when they did people were rightly pissed off (Sony's rootkit, or BonziBuddy for example)

What we had were lots of ad filled websites hosting shareware and it was often the ads that were infecting people, although some sites did inject malware into the downloads.

Re: Brave launches private search ads

#174

Not the biggest fan of Brave myself, but they seem to actually get extra points in my eyes for adding the paid option. It's not like you can pay $3 to Google to get them to stop surveilling you. On a bigger note, monetizing search without ads seem to be a pretty tricky business model. Especially if you want to move beyond being a niche product; even an average HN reader would be hard to convince to pay for a regular…

It's a slippery slope though. We saw this with Google, so it's not like it's a straw man. First it's small, discrete ads to the side. Then it's the first few entries are ads, but are marked as such. Then it's the first page of entries. Then the marking disappears. (Yeah, they put it back eventually after a backlash. I wouldn't expect a company like Brave to do the same, though.) I just go with a search engine I pay f…

It's a very good point that companies will (eventually) look to maximize revenue and thus even companies that start out with grand ideas of being "different" succumb to that pressure.

A strong countervailing force (in some markets) is competition. If Google had more competition (both in terms of a independent search service and access to be the default search option in browsers) they might have to start caring more about the search experience and privacy.

Re: Brave launches private search ads

#175

This statement (second paragraph) > Ads are a key part of search engines, helping to facilitate the free and open exchange of information on the Web, and to connect users to helpful products and services related to their search terms. Is just non sequitur for me. It's said in such a smooth way, in such a gaslight-ish way, that your tempted to just accept it. But it actually makes no sense to me. I get what ads are ke…

"An index (yellow pages) of what's available would help me search for a product."

This is what "tech" companies are seeking to prevent. If the user has no idea of what's available, then the "tech" company can "suggest" its advertisers' products and services. "Recommendations" are supposed to be technologically indistinguishable from "search". Gaslighting indeed.

But don't believe me. Get it from the horse's mouth. Read Google's brief in opposition in the Gonzalez case.

https://www.supremecourt.gov/DocketPDF/21/21-1333/229391/202...

Google wants the US Supreme Court to believe that recommendations systems and search engines are the same thing.1 If the justices were born into the world of Google, Facebook and now TikTok, that argument might work. But a majority were born before the www existed. The difference between search and recommendations is obvious and significant.

"Tech" companies, which produce no content themselves, want to recommend whatever gets "eyeballs", so they can keep the lights on by selling online advertising services. Popularity is the all-important metric. They want to run websites that serve hundreds of millions of people, relegating the rest of the web's sites to brief tangents, temporary distractions. Why. Because those conditions are optimal for advertising. For a variety of reasons, they are unable to satisfactorily filter, curate, censor, etc. the content they collect from others.

This only works as a lucrative racket so long as the "tech" company cannot be sued for the content they take from others and use as bait to lure in users to be targeted with advertising. Generally, the preaviling interpretation of Section 230 has effectively prevented such litigation.

If that interpretation changes, it could spell the end of this enormous racket. Big Tech would not be able to continue to profit from user-generated content by steering web users toward what is popular and creating large audiences attractive to advertisers. Smaller websites that produce their own content could again become relevant.

In the past, I have had personal projects where I create an alternative way to explore the www, using a Yellow Pages type of process. IMO, the reason no one seems to care about this area anymore2 is not that such projects are infeasible or too challenging, it is that there is no financial incentive to pursue them. Big Tech sold out the web. Big Tech has sought to portray the web as a 100% commercial network. It has thus become a sewer of low quality "content" and try-hard advertising, while the data collection, tracking and ad serving apparatus purchased with all that wasted ad spend is state of the art.

1. Because there is precedent that suggests 230 protects search engines. There is however no precedent that suggests it protects "recommendations".

2. I was recently looking at the original sources for WAIS on a simtel mirror. All the pieces were there. The www had so much potential. At least Brewster Kahle went on to do something useful, the Internet Archive. I still sometimes use z39.50 today to do searches on library databases. To me it represents a time before advertising infected computer networks and eventually the internet.

Re: Brave launches private search ads

#176
post #144

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If ads are truly so useful, perhaps they should withhold them unless you pay $3/mo. Oh right. They are a negative user experience and bring revenue in without providing any value (possibly negative value) to the user. Nothing groundbreaking here, but lets not pretend this is anything but a money grab.

They do as most newspapers are not free at the newsstand. To get those local classified ads you have to pay. They can be a negative or positive depending on the ad and when/where you see it Some people love to see new products and ads show those.

Yep, back when I was into photography (which was well before the web existed) I would buy photography magazines mainly for the ads. Same with the Computer Shopper, it was almnost entirely ads and people paid for it.

Re: Brave launches private search ads

#177

Not the biggest fan of Brave myself, but they seem to actually get extra points in my eyes for adding the paid option. It's not like you can pay $3 to Google to get them to stop surveilling you. On a bigger note, monetizing search without ads seem to be a pretty tricky business model. Especially if you want to move beyond being a niche product; even an average HN reader would be hard to convince to pay for a regular…

> It's not like you can pay $3 to Google to get them to stop surveilling you.

Well sort of. You can pay them for YouTube Premium and watch videos without ads. I might pay for an ad-free Google Search but I have developed an almost reflexive habit of ignoring the ads on Google Search anyway. It's much easier to just look past them in the search results, as opposed to when watching a video where you have no choice.

And I'm sure they are surveilling me regardless.

Re: Brave launches private search ads

#178

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is there any amount for which you would’ve instantly signed up and started paying or would even $1 a month still be something you “might give a try” (read: won’t do in a million years)?

At $1 it would be a no-brainer for me, but one possible argument I can see is that a flat fee is a funny arrangement here - I pay $3/mo if I make 100 searches a day, or 1, or none. If the idea is that it would only be fair to Brave to pay them for what they aren't making by showing me ads, you might think it would make more sense to have me pay for exactly how much they lose, not less or more?

> you might think it would make more sense to have me pay for exactly how much they lose, not less or more

You might think that, yes.

Why is the flat fee “funny”? Netflix, Spotify, NYT, etc. all charge the flat fee. In fact I’m having a hard time thinking of any non-flat-fee consumer digital products.

Re: Brave launches private search ads

#179
post #166

Possibly a completely dumb idea, but I’ve wondered for a while if there would be value in building an open data web index, something which would allow competing providers to offer different search algorithms on top of. I don’t know enough about the technical details about building a search engine, so perhaps this isn’t feasible because the algorithm and the index need to be tightly coupled to each other, but my hunch…

You might like Goggles (also a Brave feature): https://search.brave.com/help/goggles Disclaimer: I work at Brave.

I am a user of brave search actually, I’m glad you guys released the product!

Really more than anything else, I think about how important search is to the open web/maintaining a healthy internet. And by that, I mean that I don’t think having one dominant search provider is a good thing.

There are a lot of small upstarts that I’m happy to use such as brave/ddg/etc, but given the fact that many of those use bing as a backend I am left wondering how viable they’ll be in unseating google/bing (I know brave maintains its own index, which is a big plus).

Re: Brave launches private search ads

#180

This statement (second paragraph) > Ads are a key part of search engines, helping to facilitate the free and open exchange of information on the Web, and to connect users to helpful products and services related to their search terms. Is just non sequitur for me. It's said in such a smooth way, in such a gaslight-ish way, that your tempted to just accept it. But it actually makes no sense to me. I get what ads are ke…

I immediately liked the way you described the snake-oil. Bravo!
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