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The persistent and pervasive impact of bullying in childhood and adolescence

ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

421–430 of 449 posts

Re: The persistent and pervasive impact of bullying in childhood and adolescence

#421

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think it is a fair description of the error. "the well adjusted adults I know easily resolve issues without violence" does not mean that you should expect the same results for all adults, or for all children.

The original assertion I disputed was that we should accept that the social dynamics in a school match those of a prison. Certainly I don’t pretend there aren’t environments where adults are violent and unreasonable. Such as prisons, or other places with “people who regularly commit violence, rape, and beat their wives.” If your argument is that school environments must be similarly unpleasant because they take stude…

> should hold schools to a higher standard than environments where violence and mental abuse unavoidably happen constantly

This seems harmfully naïve to me. In pursuing this aspiration we ignore the realities that exacerbate conflict. Children and teenagers are literally not cognitively developed enough (on average) to function to this standard. This remains true no matter how much we wish it weren't.

More effective policy comes from embracing this reality. "Violence and mental abuse" are inevitable consequences of the construction of hominid dominance hierarchies. Instead of fighting their construction, we should create environments where they can occur most naturally.

Re: The persistent and pervasive impact of bullying in childhood and adolescence

#422

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Approval has nothing to do with it - we are apes living in dominance hierarchies, children even more so.

That's just not true. There are many kinds of social relations, dominance being just one particularity nasty one. Other apes also exhibit a whole range of social relations. It doesn't have to be a dog eat dog world out there, and most of the time it actually isn't.

Absolutely, and there are many kinds of social interactions at school besides bullying. My point was only that "bullying" is an expression of normal hierarchy negotiation/construction in children and should be treated as such.

Re: The persistent and pervasive impact of bullying in childhood and adolescence

#423

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> This isn't really as ambiguous as you present it to be, the obvious answer is "when you do it to them unprovoked, that's what distinguishes bullying from self-defense". I agree if I believe I did it to them unprovoked, then it would be bullying; however, how often do you think a person believes they're doing it to someone unprovoked? The receiver may believe it's unprovoked, but I'd imagine the person delivering th…

> The receiver may believe it's unprovoked, but I'd imagine the person delivering the blow in that moment may think it was provoked. I don't think most people will self-identify as a bully, but I may be wrong about that. Practically every story in this thread, notably including your own, was unprovoked. An extremely common theme is that bullies pick weak targets, if the victim fights back they pick another target. Th…

> Practically every story in this thread, notably including your own, was unprovoked.

I read this and see that you believe that they were unprovoked, not that every human would see them as unprovoked and therefore are objectively unprovoked. Maybe you don't think there's a difference between the two, but for me, I strongly believe not everyone would see these as completely unprovoked. I have a friend whose husband threatened to kill her and she left him and her kids behind to flee for her life. When she was telling me how they'd fight, she'd tell me he would get angry at her and then she'd go quiet and then he would shout and then she would avoid him for a few days, giving the silent treatment. She didn't seem to think that her silent treatment was provoking him at all, she just focused on how his anger was the violence.

> If I beat you up for looking at me funny and I say it's justified because you provoked me with your glance, that's unreasonable nonsense and claiming subjectivity doesn't suddenly make me sympathetic.

I'm not saying I justify their behavior, it's more about whether I want it to stop in the future.

> The legal world of adults actually has teeth in penalizing violence which doesn't really apply to the world of children.

I'm not sure that's true. Kids, especially teens in the US, have definitely been charged for assault and other crimes of physical violence in schools. Now, I may agree that it's less likely they'll be charged than two adults hitting each other in a bar, but I don't think they're completely exempt from such laws, at least in most parts of the US.

> I can't even honestly characterize your anecdote as bullying, at no point was harm threatened or even implied.

Perhaps for me bullying includes teasing and verbal attacks that cut someone down, and for you you're more focused on the physical assault part of bullying. So yes, then what I described did not involve a threat of physical violence and wouldn't fit in your definition of bullying and may be why we disagree on this.

> When a group of teen classmates corner you and threaten to beat you up if you don't give them your lunch money, do you honestly believe a confident remark about mutual respect can be a solution there?

I believe a confident remark about mutual respect could prevent the situation from escalating to that level of physical threat. Now, do I believe that sometimes the situation has escalated too far? Yes. Do I think that if someone is throwing a punch at my face that I'll stop it with words? No. I'll probably do my best to block the punch and grab his arm and twist it behind his back or something of the like. But then I may try to talk about how I don't want to fight and I'm confused why he keeps picking on me and maybe he's having a rough day and I'd prefer if we talked about what was going on so neither of us gets more hurt.

Re: The persistent and pervasive impact of bullying in childhood and adolescence

#424

When I was coming up, especially in middle school, we were always told that you should just ignore bullies and they would go away. This, of course, never actually worked. And anyone who did fight back against their bullies were punished just as severely, if not moreso if they swung first, as the bully. This entire approach was complete BS and only served to enable bullies because they now know that their victims eith…

> You may be punished, but the sense of catharsis more than makes up for that. The kind of punishment doled out by law-abiding adults to children isn't even a blip on the radar vs. suffering a vicious bully. It isn't even worth mentioning, punishment for violence is a total farce until adulthood. That's basically the whole source of the problem; bullys have realized there are no consequences. The best response to a b…

I'll tell you that 40 years later the people I have rage at are the principals who told me I had no recourse to stop the bullying than the bully himself. It's not just getting hit or the unkind words, it is that the entire community organizes to support the bully and his ability to operate. I'm not particularly mad at the actual bully, in fact in one case I made peace 20 years later with that individual and his family.

I was on both sides of bad behavior in school that involved insults, punching, etc. and this is not necessarily bullying. There was the time a friend and I did something cruel to an MR kid and his big brother (emphasis on "big") gave me the smackdown which I deserved. Not to condone my own behavior, but the fact that this kid got immediate protection from his big bro would have reduced the long term psychological effects of my transgression.

Re: The persistent and pervasive impact of bullying in childhood and adolescence

#425

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> You may be punished, but the sense of catharsis more than makes up for that. The kind of punishment doled out by law-abiding adults to children isn't even a blip on the radar vs. suffering a vicious bully. It isn't even worth mentioning, punishment for violence is a total farce until adulthood. That's basically the whole source of the problem; bullys have realized there are no consequences. The best response to a b…

The best advice I would have for my childhood self is along those lines. Get angry, and hurt them.

It's not that easy to hurt somebody enough to make a real difference without weapons. Getting angry and taking ineffective action is one more thing that people will mock you for and further contribute to your worthlessness just as much as the principal telling you that you have no recourse for what is happening to you.

My acting teacher told me about her fantasy of punching somebody in the face and I told her that when I tried that as a kid and really hurt my hand. In fact there was a time my son got mad and hit me in the arm and I didn't find it especially painful but his hand was still hurting 10 hours later. Usually your hand is less durable than whatever it hits, particularly the rather large bones in the face, it is a big subject of martial arts to mitigate that. Someone who smacks you has to balance the intimidation power of the smack vs the very real sting they'll experience. Packing a roll of dimes in your pocket is a deniable way (like the clipboard carried by a store manager confronting shoplifters) that can greatly improve the pain factor for both your target and yourself.

Re: The persistent and pervasive impact of bullying in childhood and adolescence

#426
post #52

Heh, decent timing. My last CBT session ended with me realising one of my issues may be a lasting effect of bullying. Essentially I was trying to find out why I procrastinate, beyond "it's just the ADHD lol" Boiled it down and down and down until we hit the core of the issue and realised I don't want to poke my head up and ship code/sites/ideas/etc because I believe I'll be bullied for it. In school doing anything th…

> Essentially I was trying to find out why I procrastinate, beyond "it's just the ADHD lol" Along this vein, I think the internet (Reddit especially) has been spreading an idea that "ADHD explains everything" in recent years. Every year I feel like I see more and more people self-diagnose with ADHD and then stop looking further for any explanation for their psychological situation. In some cases, people seem to get w…

Absolutely, and the problem is that amphetamines will make most people feel better regardless of their underlying issue, because that's what they do to the human brain. If you're depressed and you start taking Adderall you will feel happier and more energetic in a way that will convince you that you just had ADHD all along, when it's simply not true at all. You can insert so many other conditions in the place of "depression" in that sentence and it will be true. I know because I went through this whole cycle myself: adult ADHD diagnosis that seemingly explained so many things in my life -> prescription for low dose amphetamines that gave me that "wow is this how normal people feel" moment and validated that ADHD must have been my problem all along -> eventually hit a ceiling with medication effects and begin having terrible comedowns such that when I skipped them for a day I felt essentially lobotomized and incapable of getting out of bed.

Eventually I came to accept that my attention and motivation problems were a combination of screen/social media addiction, drinking too much, poor sleep caused by the two previous behaviors, poor diet, lack of exercise, and the stress of pandemic isolation and working from home. Addressing those issues was much more difficult than getting diagnosed with ADHD but in the long run it has completely changed my life for the better. I do think the ADHD thing was an important detour on my path to a healthier life, but I wonder how many people who are in the same boat will move beyond the "ADHD explains everything" stage and actually solve their real problems?

Re: The persistent and pervasive impact of bullying in childhood and adolescence

#427

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> When people know you will fight back they tend to not mess with you and getting hit is not the worst thing that can happen to you. You'll heal up. Not fighting back sticks with you and hurts forever. 100% I once had a kid walk up to me and tell me he had to show me something out in the recess yard. We get out to a certain spot, he bends down and picks up a screwdriver and throws it at me, slammed into the side of m…

Yeah, if that was everyone's experience being bullied no one would care. My bullies would tackle me, surround me, and kick me while I was down for minutes. Never less then 6 of them at a time. I had 3 concussions from being tackled and having my head smashed against the floor. They would throw sand into my eyes. I remember not being able to see while being beat. I remember having to wear an eye patch for a week from…

Was this a public school you went to, and where was it? No school I ever attended here in the U.S. would put up with anything near what you describe.

This feels like it's missing context.

Re: The persistent and pervasive impact of bullying in childhood and adolescence

#428

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The ideal situation is with as many bystanders watching as possible. That sucks if you have a gang after you, but perhaps it can be avoided in the first place by not being an easy target. I do agree that this won’t work in all situations.

In High School, lined up waiting for an elective class, dozens of witnesses... I took this advice... I stood up to a bully, and since they were already "up in my grill" they were able to sucker punch me, right in the diaphragm, without having to raise their arm and make a big show, fist quick raise to ~90 degree bent elbow and jabbed strait forward.. leaving me struggling to stand and winded for several minutes... an…

Every decision you make carries some risk. This is true.

Re: The persistent and pervasive impact of bullying in childhood and adolescence

#429

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s traditional for a father to teach his son that he should defend himself. He may lose the fight, but respect is gained. And, you’d be surprised, many bullies are actually cowards and will fold early. There are many novels directed at young people that show how to behave in these situations. It’s not clear that anyone reads them anymore. It’s important to work these things out early in life, before the “events” ge…

You should learn about bullying from science, not from out of fashion novels. Try out your intervention in a dozen randomly selected schools, try a different one (or do nothing) in the others. This has in fact been done, and nothing resembling your approach, what one might call the "Manhood YouTube channel" approach, has done well at all.

Not an "intervention", but part of communicating basic civilization to one's children. People aren't born civilized.

Do you have a reference for your claim?

Re: The persistent and pervasive impact of bullying in childhood and adolescence

#430

When I was coming up, especially in middle school, we were always told that you should just ignore bullies and they would go away. This, of course, never actually worked. And anyone who did fight back against their bullies were punished just as severely, if not moreso if they swung first, as the bully. This entire approach was complete BS and only served to enable bullies because they now know that their victims eith…

“To fight bullying, don’t be an easy target” doesn’t that shift the burden to the next weakest person?

It's unfortunate, but to the person being bullied, their immediate concern is not the next weakest person. Their immediate concern is avoiding or fending off the bully.
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