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TSMC to make 4nm chips in Arizona for Apple, AMD, Nvidia

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Re: TSMC to make 4nm chips in Arizona for Apple, AMD, Nvidia

#411

Post by black_puppydog »

hammock wrote: post #410
menshiki wrote: post #235

Great news for the US. Great news for Apple, AMD, and Nvidia. Not so good news for Taiwan. The fact that the whole tech world is dependent on chips produced in Hsinchu is a huge advantage for the safety of Taiwan. Moving the fabs and talent further away from the island will not benefit the people of Taiwan at all. TSMC with its global influence has been a huge factor for guaranteeing safety of the island and peace in…

>Great news for the US. Great news for Apple, AMD, and Nvidia. Not so good news for Taiwan. The fact that the whole tech world is dependent on chips produced in Hsinchu is a huge advantage for the safety of Taiwan. Moving the fabs and talent further away from the island will not benefit the people of Taiwan at all. Naive question, can we relocate the people of Taiwan?

Think about that for a second: why would they want to be relocated? And when is the last time you can remember someone deciding "let's relocate these other people that I'm not part of" and that being okay? I mean, one of these relocations is literally called "march of tears".

Re: TSMC to make 4nm chips in Arizona for Apple, AMD, Nvidia

#412

Post by killjoywashere »

hammock wrote: post #410
menshiki wrote: post #235

Great news for the US. Great news for Apple, AMD, and Nvidia. Not so good news for Taiwan. The fact that the whole tech world is dependent on chips produced in Hsinchu is a huge advantage for the safety of Taiwan. Moving the fabs and talent further away from the island will not benefit the people of Taiwan at all. TSMC with its global influence has been a huge factor for guaranteeing safety of the island and peace in…

>Great news for the US. Great news for Apple, AMD, and Nvidia. Not so good news for Taiwan. The fact that the whole tech world is dependent on chips produced in Hsinchu is a huge advantage for the safety of Taiwan. Moving the fabs and talent further away from the island will not benefit the people of Taiwan at all. Naive question, can we relocate the people of Taiwan?

Humans have strong ties to their land. Try getting a sick American rancher to go to the big city for treatment. The people of Taiwan will fight to the death or at least to the point that subjugation is inevitable. And then there will be a resistance.

Re: TSMC to make 4nm chips in Arizona for Apple, AMD, Nvidia

#413

Post by wahern »

paperskull wrote: post #249
jimbob45 wrote: post #246

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Does China still want Taiwan if it's no longer technologically relevant? My understanding is that China is making similar strides in its own chip industry to the point where TSMC won't be as nearly as useful to them in 10 years as it is now.

Taiwan also serves the role as an unsinkable battleship right next door to Chinas mainland. Its military value extends far beyond its chip production capabilities in order for the US to check Chinas influence in SEA region.

The U.S. military doesn't stage any assets in Taiwan, not since shortly after rapprochement with China and establishment of the current strategic ambiguity. The U.S. military is very careful about both what and who it officially permits to land on Taiwan. Occasionally (on the order of years) there are borderline cases, such as a research vessel with U.S. Navy ties docking in Taiwan, and it becomes a huge thing in the Chinese media. AFAIU, high-level officers are rarely if ever given permission to enter Taiwan; direct military liaisons in Taiwan are limited to lower level staff officers. When this protocol is broken it's a tit-for-tat situation designed to send a message, and doesn't change anything of substance in how the relationship operates.

Anyhow, the U.S. has no need nor desire to establish a presence on Taiwan. Okinawa and Korea are more than close enough for its purposes, peaceful or otherwise. And if the U.S. were to try to establish a presence, you can be sure China's invasion fleet would reach Taiwan before any significant U.S. materiel could make it ashore.

Re: TSMC to make 4nm chips in Arizona for Apple, AMD, Nvidia

#414

Post by 0cf8612b2e1e »

tnel77 wrote: post #311
NeverFade wrote: post #304

Earlier quoted context omitted.

TSMC expects to begin mass production of 3nm chips in its Taiwan fabs by 2023 Q4: https://seekingalpha.com/article/4546779-tsmc-no-3nm-soon This isn't my field, but I'm not sure what's the excitement about an Arizona plant that will optimistically start production a year later with an older process.

Indeed. There are zero domestic use cases for that ancient 4nm tech…

How many consumers or even servers are running latest generation? 4nm indeed seems like it would have legs for a long time.

Re: TSMC to make 4nm chips in Arizona for Apple, AMD, Nvidia

#415

Post by wahern »

pphysch wrote: post #335
menshiki wrote: post #235

Great news for the US. Great news for Apple, AMD, and Nvidia. Not so good news for Taiwan. The fact that the whole tech world is dependent on chips produced in Hsinchu is a huge advantage for the safety of Taiwan. Moving the fabs and talent further away from the island will not benefit the people of Taiwan at all. TSMC with its global influence has been a huge factor for guaranteeing safety of the island and peace in…

> TSMC with its global influence has been a huge factor for guaranteeing safety of the island and peace in the Taiwan strait. This narrative is echoed around the internet, but if you study the actual history of the Taiwan Strait Crises (which started before the semiconductor was invented), it never comes up in official discussion or analysis. See Kissinger, for example. Cynically, this narrative was possibly promoted…

> Cynically, this narrative was possibly promoted by the USG/Taiwan-lobby to put lipstick on what has always been a naked display of power politics.

I also suspect this narrative is at the very least supported if not conceived by Taiwan as propaganda. But we don't need to be cynical. What this narrative does is establish in the minds of Americans a shared interest in Taiwan and, arguably, even a shared identity. That's not intrinsically bad, malicious, nor even disingenuous on the part of the Taiwanese. Especially for a country as large and resource rich (in every meaning of the term) as the United States, all overseas interests and identities are built principally on fictions; some built very deliberately, but many which grew organically. IMO, the high technology dependency narrative fits comfortably between pure ideology (democratic solidarity!) and pure real politick, e.g. oil. Unlike the case with oil interests, the narrative speaks to a coevolution of our industrial and economic bases on equal terms in tandem with political ideology, and thus posits a shared future. And given how quickly and easily the narrative has spread, it has a strong organic character to it--even if Taiwanese political strategists planted the seeds, the soil was more than accommodating.

Such a crafted narrative to me seems more like an invitation than manipulation. (Either way, admittedly such characterizations are dependent on one's chosen perspective.) Nonetheless, it should be recognized for what it is; taken literally it leads to erroneous conclusions. If the U.S. aggressively defends Taiwan in an invasion attempt, it won't be because of TSMC and fears of a chip shortage; it'll be because the American public has become invested in the idea of a free and democratic Taiwan, and willing to believe and accept that the US's long-term self-interests are furthered by putting itself and its citizens in the way of considerable, even existential harm. The story of TSMC would just be one of many--albeit an important one--along the road which brought the nation to that state of mind.

Re: TSMC to make 4nm chips in Arizona for Apple, AMD, Nvidia

#416

Post by throw8383833jj »

I don't know much about semi conductors. maybe i'm just an old dinosaur. But, why is the whole world so hellbent on getting the very latest chips? Couldn't we just make do with 10 year old chip designs? My Iphone6 can do just about everything that my wife's latest iphone11 can do (at least that a casual observer can see). Cars from 10 years ago were'nt that different from now (other than buttons being replaced with screens), etc. The nintendo from the 90s is just as entertaining as the latest nintendo, etc.

Re: TSMC to make 4nm chips in Arizona for Apple, AMD, Nvidia

#417

Post by oblvious-earth »

tiffanyh wrote: post #175

> opens its new chip factory in Arizona in 2024 So this factory will be a generation behind once it opens.

Yes, actually more like 2 generations once chips are commercially available, the Arizona factory has never been advertised as a cutting edge node.

But there are 100s of media headlines basically implying that by listing high profile customers and not mentioning the date of opening. Those customers will for the most part be using this factory for auxiliary chips.

Re: TSMC to make 4nm chips in Arizona for Apple, AMD, Nvidia

#418

Post by bl4ckneon »

bcrosby95 wrote: post #361
throwaway365435 wrote: post #338

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As an Arizona native, occasionally my paranoia about living in a desert and simultaneously living through world wide climate change begins to really worry me. Inevitably I come to a conclusion that is very similar to yours. Arizona is pretty low on priority for water from the Colorado River and does a great job with water reclamation. That being said, I worry if I'm just believing what I want to hear

At the very least, living in a desert is better for climate change than living somewhere you need to burn fossil fuels for heating.

Though you need a lot more AC during the summer. Something solar could provide but until it's more ubiquitous most power would still come from fossil fuels.

Re: TSMC to make 4nm chips in Arizona for Apple, AMD, Nvidia

#419

Post by Melatonic »

throw8383833jj wrote: post #416

I don't know much about semi conductors. maybe i'm just an old dinosaur. But, why is the whole world so hellbent on getting the very latest chips? Couldn't we just make do with 10 year old chip designs? My Iphone6 can do just about everything that my wife's latest iphone11 can do (at least that a casual observer can see). Cars from 10 years ago were'nt that different from now (other than buttons being replaced with s…

Generally smaller nanometre designs are a lot more power efficient. Your old iPhone will do just fine yes - but imagine if it had twice the battery life?

Now why they just keep massively increasing power as efficiency goes up is beyond me......I think a lot of people would love a new iPhone with a processor a bit faster than your old iPhone 6 but with insane battery life.

Re: TSMC to make 4nm chips in Arizona for Apple, AMD, Nvidia

#420

Post by s3p »

throw8383833jj wrote: post #416

I don't know much about semi conductors. maybe i'm just an old dinosaur. But, why is the whole world so hellbent on getting the very latest chips? Couldn't we just make do with 10 year old chip designs? My Iphone6 can do just about everything that my wife's latest iphone11 can do (at least that a casual observer can see). Cars from 10 years ago were'nt that different from now (other than buttons being replaced with s…

It's not necessarily about having the latest chip tech from a consumer perspective but more about TSMC's business demand. Businesses like Apple are only signing contracts for the best chip designs, and they are a massive customer for TSMC. Moving production to the US is great because it means apple has a more reliable supply source in the wake of increasing China/Taiwan tensions. It makes sense for TSMC as well because Apple and others were considering alternative manufactureres (Intel) in the wake of those political problems. But as for regular consumers, I think you're right. Most of us don't care whether we have a 10nm or 4nm chip in our devices, we just need good battery life.
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