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TSMC to make 4nm chips in Arizona for Apple, AMD, Nvidia

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Re: TSMC to make 4nm chips in Arizona for Apple, AMD, Nvidia

#331

Post by philliphaydon »

DoughnutHole wrote: post #308
SkyMarshal wrote: post #295

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Taiwan is an integral part of the Chinese nation No it isn't. China under the Communist Party has never ruled or controlled Taiwan (since 1949). Taiwan democratized, developed, and got wealthy first, completely independently of China. Taiwan has never in modern history been an integral part of China.

There's a difference between a nation and a state, although the two are nearly always synonymous in the modern world. Taiwan and China being one nation is the policy of the governments of both China and Taiwan. Of course Taiwanese nationalism is it's own thing now, but the Taiwanese people seeing themselves as not Chinese is a relatively recent phenomenon - it's been functionally independent for less than 100 years,…

> Taiwan and China being one nation is the policy of the governments of both China and Taiwan.

No one in Taiwan and not even the current government consider China/Taiwan together. When KMT fled and created the constitution they claim China. Taiwan is now stuck in limbo because the people just want to live their lives in peace and already consider themselves Taiwanese and independent. But if they change the constitution then China will consider it a formal act of independence and use it as an excuse.

Re: TSMC to make 4nm chips in Arizona for Apple, AMD, Nvidia

#332

Post by philliphaydon »

gnu8 wrote: post #307
SkyMarshal wrote: post #295

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Taiwan is an integral part of the Chinese nation No it isn't. China under the Communist Party has never ruled or controlled Taiwan (since 1949). Taiwan democratized, developed, and got wealthy first, completely independently of China. Taiwan has never in modern history been an integral part of China.

China has been a country for longer than the history of European civilization. They do not subscribe to the view that nothing that happened before 1945 matters the way Americans seem to.

China also makes the claim of 1000s of years of history but Taiwans inclusion in that history is about 200 years. And of that less than 10 was a province that China still didn’t govern or control. It was more or less just something they said to deter Japan. So historically China has never ruled over Taiwan. Japan has more claim to Taiwan than China as it actually ruled and controlled Taiwan.

Re: TSMC to make 4nm chips in Arizona for Apple, AMD, Nvidia

#333

Post by anotherman554 »

macspoofing wrote: post #259
totalZero wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Apple spent something like a half-trillion on share buybacks. They could have averted this crisis a decade ago by thinking strategically. They didn't. Why give them credit where little or no credit is due?

>Apple spent something like a half-trillion on share buybacks. They could have averted this crisis a decade ago by thinking strategically. I don't understand the fixation on this. Share buybacks strengthen the stock price of the company, which the company can leverage in the future to raise more capital if needed (by re-releasing new shares to the market). From that perspective, they are better than dividends. Beside…

"Share buybacks strengthen the stock price of the company, which the company can leverage in the future to raise more capital if needed (by re-releasing new shares to the market). From that perspective, they are better than dividends."

You are confused. A 100 dollar company with 100 shares outstanding, each worth 1 dollar, is not better able to raise capital than a 100 dollar company with 50 shares outstanding, each worth 2 dollars.

And even if it were a reverse stock split can convert the former to the latter.

Re: TSMC to make 4nm chips in Arizona for Apple, AMD, Nvidia

#334

Post by t-3 »

dirtyid wrote: post #320
t-3 wrote: post #314

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> exfiltrate TSMC engineers (before children no less) Why would you expect the US military to care about children or try to evacuate them?

US military doesn't care. But the TWnese care, which US thinktankers/media, and I'm guessing US based commenters like you seem to forget. Hence the disconnect on why people seriously contemplate these TW will blow up TSMC memes. And why TW media reminding US, that if they're going to evacuate anyone off the island first, it's not going to be their semi engineers, it's going to be women and children. Or that more gene…

Yes, Taiwanese obviously care more about their children. But that doesn't change that the US military won't allow the Chinese to obtain TSMC or the knowledge of their engineers.

Re: TSMC to make 4nm chips in Arizona for Apple, AMD, Nvidia

#335

Post by pphysch »

menshiki wrote: post #235

Great news for the US. Great news for Apple, AMD, and Nvidia. Not so good news for Taiwan. The fact that the whole tech world is dependent on chips produced in Hsinchu is a huge advantage for the safety of Taiwan. Moving the fabs and talent further away from the island will not benefit the people of Taiwan at all. TSMC with its global influence has been a huge factor for guaranteeing safety of the island and peace in…

> TSMC with its global influence has been a huge factor for guaranteeing safety of the island and peace in the Taiwan strait.

This narrative is echoed around the internet, but if you study the actual history of the Taiwan Strait Crises (which started before the semiconductor was invented), it never comes up in official discussion or analysis. See Kissinger, for example.

Cynically, this narrative was possibly promoted by the USG/Taiwan-lobby to put lipstick on what has always been a naked display of power politics. Washington wants its First Island Chain to contain China [1], and Beijing doesn't want Washington to have it.

[1] - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Island_chain_strategy

Re: TSMC to make 4nm chips in Arizona for Apple, AMD, Nvidia

#336

Post by ip26 »

jackpeterfletch wrote: post #247
menshiki wrote: post #235

Great news for the US. Great news for Apple, AMD, and Nvidia. Not so good news for Taiwan. The fact that the whole tech world is dependent on chips produced in Hsinchu is a huge advantage for the safety of Taiwan. Moving the fabs and talent further away from the island will not benefit the people of Taiwan at all. TSMC with its global influence has been a huge factor for guaranteeing safety of the island and peace in…

Thats interesting. My initial thoughts on this came the from the opposite side in terms of Taiwans security. One of the major bounties for invading Taiwan would be in the acquisition and control of their chip manufacturing. Which - as you mention, the entire tech world is dependant on. By moving some of that capability offshore, that incentive is gone. Though I can see it from both sides.

More bleakly, if TSMC is destroyed as a result of invasion, the rest of the world is denied access. This might be to their liking. With some of the capability in the US, they can no longer deny the rest of the world.

Re: TSMC to make 4nm chips in Arizona for Apple, AMD, Nvidia

#337

Post by waterhouse »

FBISurveillance wrote: post #290
abakker wrote: post #262

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Without the staff from TSMC, the Chinese Government probably can't run those facilities. I suspect there isn't much probability that china could mobilize and take those facilities as-is with no sabotage. The US has taken steps recently to reduce china's ability to make chips domestically. See - https://www.seattletimes.com/business/chip-gear-maker-asml-a...

I've read that TSMC fabs are filled with explosives to set off if China invades so they wouldn't get their hands on tech and equipment. I'm pretty certain that's true, given how important TSMC tech is.

If true, that would decrease China's incentive to invade. That would seem to be the reason for TSMC to set that up.

Re: TSMC to make 4nm chips in Arizona for Apple, AMD, Nvidia

#338

Post by throwaway365435 »

jiggyjace wrote: post #250
bsmitty5000 wrote: post #78

My first job out of school was final test for a semiconductor in Phoenix that had a small fab in Gilbert. I remember we took a rabbit suited tour there as part of the new hire orientation, it was pretty neat. The one thing though that stuck with me is how much water a fab needs on a daily basis. I can’t remember the exact number, I just remember thinking how stupid it was to build fabs in Phoenix. But then again, the…

I'm from Arizona and have thus wondered this and researched the perceived water dilemma myself. Fabs do need a considerable injection of water to start, but their systems are so advanced and their logistics so efficient that they end up reusing so much of it over time. Couple this with the fact that Arizona also has a great infrastructure already in place for water reuse and conservation. When Arizona had only 700,00…

As an Arizona native, occasionally my paranoia about living in a desert and simultaneously living through world wide climate change begins to really worry me.

Inevitably I come to a conclusion that is very similar to yours. Arizona is pretty low on priority for water from the Colorado River and does a great job with water reclamation.

That being said, I worry if I'm just believing what I want to hear

Re: TSMC to make 4nm chips in Arizona for Apple, AMD, Nvidia

#339

Post by mixmastamyk »

deltaseventhree wrote: post #271
menshiki wrote: post #235

Great news for the US. Great news for Apple, AMD, and Nvidia. Not so good news for Taiwan. The fact that the whole tech world is dependent on chips produced in Hsinchu is a huge advantage for the safety of Taiwan. Moving the fabs and talent further away from the island will not benefit the people of Taiwan at all. TSMC with its global influence has been a huge factor for guaranteeing safety of the island and peace in…

It is categorically NOT a huge win for the stock. This is all happening because of US subsidies. The US has more expensive workers who are overall worse at the job and don't have the expertise to be compete with the people in Taiwan. The subsidies only make this a viable option for political reasons. The decision to create a fab in Arizona is strictly speaking unprofitable and essentially a economically irrational mo…

Short-sighted comment. You know how you develop expertise? That’s right, you invest in it.

Re: TSMC to make 4nm chips in Arizona for Apple, AMD, Nvidia

#340

Post by chrischen »

Mikeb85 wrote: post #287
deltaseventhree wrote: post #282

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Espionage is a minor reason. Trivial really. The main reason is the looming threat of invasion of Taiwan from China. Such an action is catastrophic for Taiwan and the US. I thought this was obvious. Guess not. The US is an easier espionage point for the US to steal technology from Taiwan. Most likely it will happen. But simple espionage isn't enough for this technology to fully transfer. The expertise and knowhow is…

Does TSMC "own" the technology? Because their fabs are wholly dependent on ASML, a Dutch company. And they're using that to produce tech that's designed in the west as well.

Well if TSMC is not doing anything valuable then someone tell the shareholders because ASML is worth almost only half of TSMC.
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