Spotify CEO renews attack on Apple after Musk's salvo • Hacker News Board

Re: Spotify CEO renews attack on Apple after Musk's salvo

#771

Post by ArnoVW » Thu, Dec 01, 2022, 3:43 PM UTC

coldpie wrote: post #732

ArnoVW wrote: post #655

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If that were the true reason that Apple is forcing Appstore, and that's a big if, then Apple could still offer this "amazing service to customers", by contractually forcing companies to always also offer payments via Apple if payments are accepted elsewhere. If I can think of that in 30 seconds, then so can Apple. I'll let you draw your own conclusion.

If the app is distributed via a non-Apple app store, then there is no contract between the app developer and Apple. What mechanism would Apple have to enforce that policy?

Apple famously have total control over their vertically integrated platform. It's called a 'walled garden' for a reason.

They could trivially do this because as it is, they require that all apps are signed. Irrespective of the distribution method. To sign an app, currently, you need a contract with Apple.

They just need a one line clause stating that you can distribute on other platforms if the app also appears in their store.

Re: Spotify CEO renews attack on Apple after Musk's salvo

#772

Post by fleddr » Thu, Dec 01, 2022, 3:43 PM UTC

People are digressing into all kinds of matters unrelated to the article and issue.

The heart of the matter is not control of the device, it's about the Apple tax, and how it makes no sense in particular scenarios, such as subscriptions.

Sure enough, the app store services are worth something. Real labor, infra and costs go into it. Although Apple could very well subsidize it, it's not 100% unfair to ask for some kind of fee, such as the fee to set up a developer account.

This fairness argument goes completely out the window in the case of Spotify or Twitter subscriptions, it no longer is related to any real costs made. When you pay 10$ to stream from Spotify, it's absurd to have to pay $3 to Apple for this "privilege". Nothing about the streaming or value delivered is in any way related to the App store. They leech enormous sums of money from creators, companies and consumers.

The argument that they're a private company that can do whatever they want is moot. They're an unavoidable ecosystem middleman that affects the entire digital industry. It is insanely hostile to every player except Apple.

The fact that you can't even MENTION an alternative payment in your app should tell you how draconian and power hungry Apple is. You shouldn't cloud your judgement by liking Apple in general or disliking Spotify.

Re: Spotify CEO renews attack on Apple after Musk's salvo

#773

Post by danaris » Thu, Dec 01, 2022, 3:45 PM UTC

bayindirh wrote: post #530

scarface74 wrote: post #517

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes HN chicken littles have been saying that Apple is going to force all apps to go through the Mac App Store since it was introduced in 2010.

We "HN chicken littles" were also saying that Microsoft is gonna force Secure Boot harder and harder to close the hardware ecosystem for Linux, and we're almost there. Being skeptical, and critical is important. This skepticism, criticizing and warning caused Apple to at least postpone their CSAM scan and reconsider their algorithms. We need to talk, and talk indeed openly about the things we don't like. Otherwise we…

Microsoft is not Apple. Their corporate culture is different, their revenue sources are different, and their incentives and motivations are different.

"But we said Microsoft would do this bad thing, and then they did it!" is not a valid argument for why we should believe "But we've been saying for 12 years that Apple will do this bad thing Any Day Now™! They haven't yet, but it'll definitely happen Very Soon, just you wait!"

Re: Spotify CEO renews attack on Apple after Musk's salvo

#774

Post by BitwiseFool » Thu, Dec 01, 2022, 3:48 PM UTC

achenet wrote: post #714

2OEH8eoCRo0 wrote: post #358

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I guess it's technically an option to go out of business by removing your app from the Apple App Store.

if your business is that fragile, maybe you should change your business.

>"If your business is that fragile, maybe you should change your business. "

Alternatively, if that other business is that strong, maybe we should regulate their anti-competitive practices.

Re: Spotify CEO renews attack on Apple after Musk's salvo

#775

Post by tpmoney » Thu, Dec 01, 2022, 3:50 PM UTC

lelanthran wrote: post #672

tpmoney wrote: post #614

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>We demand this of almost all non-phone appliances. Why should phones get an exemption? Do we really? By law you can't install your own software or ECU in your car and use it legally on the roads. I don't see many people pushing to be able to install BSD on their refrigerator. I think most people would be a lot happier if their TVs didn't come with a full OS. Game consoles have been locked down forever. While re-flas…

> By law you can't install your own software or ECU in your car and use it legally on the roads. Who told you this? As long as the ECU you install meet the requirements, feel free. There's even a few open source ones. See https://megasquirt.info/ You are displaying the problem with allowing Apple special exemption to flout the rules - eventually people start believing that it must be against the law ... just like you…

I am well aware of the megasquirt project and others like speeduino. The existence and popularity of that product no more speaks to its legality anymore than the existence and popularity of illegal drugs speaks to theirs. Federal law prohibits tampering with any part of your vehicles emissions control systems, which includes the ECU and any aftermarket parts must comply to all relevant epa standards and almost always requires EPA or CARB certification [1]. In theory it might be possible to get that certification or get and exemption even without it, but it is notable that no CARB or EPA approved after market forced induction systems allow end user modification of the fueling control. Additionally no complete ECU replacements that I’m aware of will pass OBD II emissions tests or even report the relevant data.

Additionally megaquirt themselves repeatedly remind you their products are not legal for road use [2]:

> MegaSquirt® and MicroSquirt® controllers are experimental devices intended for educational purposes. MegaSquirt® and MicroSquirt® controllers are not for sale or use on pollution controlled vehicles. Check the applicable laws in your locality to determine if using MegaSquirt is legal for your application. For more information, see: www.megamanual.com/tamp.htm

Or

> No. MegaSquirt® EFI controllers DO NOT have exemption orders, and thus are NOT emissions legal for sale or use on any on-road pollution controlled vehicles in the U.S.A. or Canada. Competition vehicles that are never operated on public roads may be able to use MegaSquirt® EFI controllers, and some older 'non-emissions' on-road vehicles might be able to use MegaSquirt® EFI controllers as well. For other regions, please check your local regulations to see if a MegaSquirt® EFI controller is legal for your application. There is more information here: www.megamanual.com/tamp.htm

Or just http://www.megamanual.com/tamp.htm

[1]: https://www.epa.gov/sites/default/files/2020-12/documents/ep... [2]: http://www.megamanual.com/MSFAQ.htm#whatis

Re: Spotify CEO renews attack on Apple after Musk's salvo

#776

Post by BitwiseFool » Thu, Dec 01, 2022, 3:51 PM UTC

endisneigh wrote: post #86

Stop buying Apple if you don't like it. Seriously. At the end of the day all of these companies would do the exact same thing as Apple if they were in Apple's position. The real solution to this is improved functionality of web apps and complete migration to those, then you can be free of the duopoly. Other than using phone specific features, why can't all apps run on your desktop, laptop or elsewhere? I'll never get…

>"Stop buying Apple if you don't like it. Seriously."

Easy to say, but this isn't going to work. This kind of "just don't buy it" maxim grossly oversimplifies the situation and gets used post-facto to rationalize that the problem in question wasn't actually a problem because Apple is still around.

Re: Spotify CEO renews attack on Apple after Musk's salvo

#777

Post by flohofwoe » Thu, Dec 01, 2022, 3:56 PM UTC

maccard wrote: post #674

flohofwoe wrote: post #648

Earlier quoted context omitted.

...and there's really nothing wrong with that. If it would, then PC gaming would have collapsed a long time ago.

Sure there is. It's fragmentation, and it's not a choice. I can't buy my favourite Unisoft game and play it with my friends in steam, instead I'm forced to download uplay or the epic launcher. That's not a choice, and it's no better than being forced to use steam in the first place.

These are all business decisions by Valve, Ubisoft, Epic, etc... if it's too much of a hassle for me to play Ubisoft games, then Ubisoft has lost me as a customer, it's very simple (apart from that, Ubisoft has returned to Steam a long time ago: https://store.steampowered.com/publisher/Ubisoft)

But none of this is Microsoft's business. That's the important part.

Re: Spotify CEO renews attack on Apple after Musk's salvo

#778

Post by RHSeeger » Thu, Dec 01, 2022, 3:56 PM UTC

danaris wrote: post #770

RHSeeger wrote: post #658

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It just manages itself, and all that hard problems (backups, updates, ease of use, experience homogenity, etc.) are solved. My wife switched away from an iPhone an an Android device less than a year ago exactly because this _wasn't_ the case. - Restore from backup failed... pretty much impossible to solve as far as we could tell - Tell iTunes what songs you want loaded onto your phone and sync. Then leave the house…

You list several fairly serious failures that are absolutely not typical. I have had to restore my iDevices from backups several times. It has worked flawlessly every time. I have been syncing my music library from iTunes to my iDevices since well before the iPhone existed. The only times I have ever had a problem with songs not being on the iPhone are when a) I wasn't actually syncing my whole library, but a subset,…

> The only times I have ever had a problem with songs not being on the iPhone are when

But would you even notice if the song showed up in your itunes list "as if" it was on the phone but, when you played it, it grabbed it off the internet (with not delay, because it streams it). I expect most people wouldn't notice this at all.

> But it does mean that either because of user error or unusually bad products

- The issue with it loading songs (that you have told it to put on the phone) from the internet is, as far as I was able to determine, intended behavior.

- The issue with it renaming every song to a "random" alphanumeric string is, also as far as I was able to determine, intended behavior. Although needing to get the songs "back out of itunes" is, I imagine, an edge case.

- The failed backup restore, I have nothing on. It didn't work, but it was long enough ago that I don't recall why. I do not think it was faulty hardware. It could have been user error... but the entire point of the iphone argument is "it just works"; "you didn't do it right" isn't really a reasonable response in that context. Especially when you consider we really couldn't find a way to recover from it.

Re: Spotify CEO renews attack on Apple after Musk's salvo

#779

Post by RHSeeger » Thu, Dec 01, 2022, 3:57 PM UTC

koenvdb wrote: post #710

RHSeeger wrote: post #658

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It just manages itself, and all that hard problems (backups, updates, ease of use, experience homogenity, etc.) are solved. My wife switched away from an iPhone an an Android device less than a year ago exactly because this _wasn't_ the case. - Restore from backup failed... pretty much impossible to solve as far as we could tell - Tell iTunes what songs you want loaded onto your phone and sync. Then leave the house…

To be fair, most people using an iPhone don't download music onto their phones but instead just use Spotify/Apple Music/whatever other music service is hot at the moment. It still sucks, but this is a fairly specific usecase imo.

For anyone that isn't on an unlimited data plan, being able to play music located on the device is critical.

Re: Spotify CEO renews attack on Apple after Musk's salvo

#780

Post by bayindirh » Thu, Dec 01, 2022, 4:17 PM UTC

danaris wrote: post #773

bayindirh wrote: post #530

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We "HN chicken littles" were also saying that Microsoft is gonna force Secure Boot harder and harder to close the hardware ecosystem for Linux, and we're almost there. Being skeptical, and critical is important. This skepticism, criticizing and warning caused Apple to at least postpone their CSAM scan and reconsider their algorithms. We need to talk, and talk indeed openly about the things we don't like. Otherwise we…

Microsoft is not Apple. Their corporate culture is different, their revenue sources are different, and their incentives and motivations are different. "But we said Microsoft would do this bad thing, and then they did it!" is not a valid argument for why we should believe "But we've been saying for 12 years that Apple will do this bad thing Any Day Now™! They haven't yet, but it'll definitely happen Very Soon, just yo…

I can find you a dozen comments rehashing "The New Microsoft (TM)" which allegedly won't do such thing as forcing Secure Boot further because they have changed, the culture have changed, they now "Love Linux (TM)" and whatnot.

Companies are companies. I'd love the future to sucker punch me and prove completely otherwise.