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TSMC to make 4nm chips in Arizona for Apple, AMD, Nvidia

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Re: TSMC to make 4nm chips in Arizona for Apple, AMD, Nvidia

#271

Post by deltaseventhree »

menshiki wrote: post #235

Great news for the US. Great news for Apple, AMD, and Nvidia. Not so good news for Taiwan. The fact that the whole tech world is dependent on chips produced in Hsinchu is a huge advantage for the safety of Taiwan. Moving the fabs and talent further away from the island will not benefit the people of Taiwan at all. TSMC with its global influence has been a huge factor for guaranteeing safety of the island and peace in…

It is categorically NOT a huge win for the stock. This is all happening because of US subsidies.

The US has more expensive workers who are overall worse at the job and don't have the expertise to be compete with the people in Taiwan.

The subsidies only make this a viable option for political reasons. The decision to create a fab in Arizona is strictly speaking unprofitable and essentially a economically irrational move for the company.

It is ONLY being done because of US demand and political tension from China. For a shareholder this move is not good when looking at it in terms of profit.

I know this is a hard pill to swallow but it's true.

Don't joke about Europe. The best place for tsmc to expand is actually china. But this won't happen for various reasons that we all know about.

Re: TSMC to make 4nm chips in Arizona for Apple, AMD, Nvidia

#273

Post by deltaseventhree »

whalesalad wrote: post #248
jimbob45 wrote: post #246

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Does China still want Taiwan if it's no longer technologically relevant? My understanding is that China is making similar strides in its own chip industry to the point where TSMC won't be as nearly as useful to them in 10 years as it is now.

Taiwan does far more than just TSMC. That is just one single company, albeit a very essential one. For instance, I don't like to buy hand tools (impact sockets, torque wrenches, etc) made in China, but Taiwanese tools are a higher quality and I have no hesitation purchasing them.

Essential for you. But overall tsmc eclipses everything else Taiwan makes.

If Taiwan stopped making those tools you would be impacted. The world overall... not so much.

Re: TSMC to make 4nm chips in Arizona for Apple, AMD, Nvidia

#274

Post by yucky »

LegitShady wrote: post #252
judge2020 wrote: post #251

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The fact that the whole tech world is dependent on chips produced in Hsinchu is a huge advantage for the safety of Taiwan. But if they're entirely dependent on the US for defense in case of PRC invasion, is that healthy for the country?

what are the alternatives?

Exactly what you're seeing. Move semiconductor industry out of Taiwan so then when China takes it, disruption is lessened.

Re: TSMC to make 4nm chips in Arizona for Apple, AMD, Nvidia

#275

Post by deltaseventhree »

qualudeheart wrote: post #272

America is back.

Tsmc is being subsidized. The plant is not a profitable operation by itself. America is not back.

Patriotism is blindness. If you hold no loyalties to even the country you are born in it's easier to see the truth.

Re: TSMC to make 4nm chips in Arizona for Apple, AMD, Nvidia

#276

Post by mzs »

abakker wrote: post #262
jackpeterfletch wrote: post #247

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thats interesting. My initial thoughts on this came the from the opposite side in terms of Taiwans security. One of the major bounties for invading Taiwan would be in the acquisition and control of their chip manufacturing. Which - as you mention, the entire tech world is dependant on. By moving some of that capability offshore, that incentive is gone. Though I can see it from both sides.

Without the staff from TSMC, the Chinese Government probably can't run those facilities. I suspect there isn't much probability that china could mobilize and take those facilities as-is with no sabotage. The US has taken steps recently to reduce china's ability to make chips domestically. See - https://www.seattletimes.com/business/chip-gear-maker-asml-a...

ATM PRC assaulting Taiwan would hobble western defense industry. By moving more manufacturing into NA & EU that alleviates it. It helps Taiwan as well who depends on western defense industry.

Re: TSMC to make 4nm chips in Arizona for Apple, AMD, Nvidia

#277

Post by yucky »

totalZero wrote: post #43
etaioinshrdlu wrote: post #12

Does the CHIPS act have anything to do with making this happen? It's funny to think that the supply chain gurus at Apple & NVIDIA may be doing the work of geopolitics in the service of just defending their bottom line from disruption.

Apple spent something like a half-trillion on share buybacks. They could have averted this crisis a decade ago by thinking strategically. They didn't. Why give them credit where little or no credit is due?

In 2008 Apple wasn't even in the top 15 US companies by market cap. Now they're the largest US company by quite a margin.

The data says their approach was correct.

Re: TSMC to make 4nm chips in Arizona for Apple, AMD, Nvidia

#278

Post by ScoobleDoodle »

deltaseventhree wrote: post #271
menshiki wrote: post #235

Great news for the US. Great news for Apple, AMD, and Nvidia. Not so good news for Taiwan. The fact that the whole tech world is dependent on chips produced in Hsinchu is a huge advantage for the safety of Taiwan. Moving the fabs and talent further away from the island will not benefit the people of Taiwan at all. TSMC with its global influence has been a huge factor for guaranteeing safety of the island and peace in…

It is categorically NOT a huge win for the stock. This is all happening because of US subsidies. The US has more expensive workers who are overall worse at the job and don't have the expertise to be compete with the people in Taiwan. The subsidies only make this a viable option for political reasons. The decision to create a fab in Arizona is strictly speaking unprofitable and essentially a economically irrational mo…

The “various reasons we all know about” I’m guessing are: theft of intellectual property, theft of the technology and skills.

I wonder if Arizona US will be an easier espionage point than Taiwan for China to exfiltrate the tech.

Re: TSMC to make 4nm chips in Arizona for Apple, AMD, Nvidia

#279

Post by deltaseventhree »

nailer wrote: post #7

I love how “we can’t make chips in the US anymore it’s impossible” was something we heard only a few years ago.

It's possible. With subsidies. The US is literally paying tsmc for this to even be viable.

Tsmc is not coming here because it's an economically wise move. They are coming here knowing it's an economically irrational move.

Politics is the reason for this move. It is not a clear cut win.

Your post has the aroma of patriotism. Patriotism blinds us to harsh truths. Why do you love how people were wrong when they said we can't make chips in the US anymore? You shouldn't feel love or hate for any of these statements.

Re: TSMC to make 4nm chips in Arizona for Apple, AMD, Nvidia

#280

Post by zasdffaa »

ecshafer wrote: post #264
jackpeterfletch wrote: post #247

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thats interesting. My initial thoughts on this came the from the opposite side in terms of Taiwans security. One of the major bounties for invading Taiwan would be in the acquisition and control of their chip manufacturing. Which - as you mention, the entire tech world is dependant on. By moving some of that capability offshore, that incentive is gone. Though I can see it from both sides.

China absolutely wants to be reunited with Taiwan. Taiwan is a constant reminder of the century of humiliation (Translated term that is basically China's term for Opium wars to WWII). Taiwan is an integral part of the Chinese nation and for nationalistic reasons, it would be an issue even if Taiwan had no other benefits.

Speaking as a brit, the opium wars were an abomination but China does like to (or find convenient) playing the victim.
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