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TSMC to make 4nm chips in Arizona for Apple, AMD, Nvidia

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Re: TSMC to make 4nm chips in Arizona for Apple, AMD, Nvidia

#151

Post by FooBarWidget »

dkjaudyeqooe wrote: post #114
vineyardmike wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

China is already working on their own chips. It’s only a matter of time before it’s good enough .

Good enough for what? The free world isn't standing still so China will always be several generations behind. The market wants the latest and greatest. It's only if the free world can't compete will China catch up, in which case it will get what it deserves.

Good enough for 70% of dometic market demand, which analists have found is satisified by 14nm.

The thing is, "latest and greatest" is actually a niche demand, even if we don't feel like that's the case because of phones and laptops. The market for non-phone, non-laptop, boring unsexy applications that don't require more than 14nm is apparently much bigger.

Re: TSMC to make 4nm chips in Arizona for Apple, AMD, Nvidia

#152

Post by cromka »

codedokode wrote: post #146

Why did TSMC agreed to give away the most important technology to a foreign country? It doesn't look like a choice one would do voluntary. In my opinion, they should better give away some outdated technology like 45 or 65nm. This reminds me of China which forced some Western manufacturers to transfer technology to them.

Give away to a foreign country? You realize that TSMC is a publicly traded company and they have a shareholder responsibility in managing their operational risk?

Re: TSMC to make 4nm chips in Arizona for Apple, AMD, Nvidia

#153

Post by FooBarWidget »

holoduke wrote: post #66
vineyardmike wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

China is already working on their own chips. It’s only a matter of time before it’s good enough .

They are lightyears behind. 20 years if not more. These chip machines is work of many decates of iterative work. You cannot simply step in and produce similar tech.

Okay so what's the plan after 20 years? Or do you think China won't be a problem for you anymore by then?

Re: TSMC to make 4nm chips in Arizona for Apple, AMD, Nvidia

#154

Post by cbm-vic-20 »

lvl102 wrote: post #144

I find it comical that the US educates more than 90% of top engineers yet we don’t control 90% of crucial chip-making assets. We need to implement some type of conditions for anyone seeking education here in the US especially in institutions that are backed by US tax dollars. We need to stop handing out education to the very people who are dead set on competing against our national interests. In other words, stop tra…

The US actively kicks them out of the country: once your student visa expires, GTFO. Seems crazy to me- in my dictatorship, we should do the opposite: confiscate the passport of anyone in a PhD program until 5 years after the completion of their degree.

Re: TSMC to make 4nm chips in Arizona for Apple, AMD, Nvidia

#155

Post by mdp2021 »

codedokode wrote: post #146

Why did TSMC agreed to give away the most important technology to a foreign country? It doesn't look like a choice one would do voluntary. In my opinion, they should better give away some outdated technology like 45 or 65nm. This reminds me of China which forced some Western manufacturers to transfer technology to them.

> In my opinion

With respect, this seems like a case in which credentials are important.

The geopolitical context involving the relevant actors brings a number of difficulties the knowledge of which must be assumed, and that even Mainland recognizes.

Re: TSMC to make 4nm chips in Arizona for Apple, AMD, Nvidia

#156

Post by [deleted] »

lvl102 wrote: post #144

I find it comical that the US educates more than 90% of top engineers yet we don’t control 90% of crucial chip-making assets. We need to implement some type of conditions for anyone seeking education here in the US especially in institutions that are backed by US tax dollars. We need to stop handing out education to the very people who are dead set on competing against our national interests. In other words, stop tra…

[deleted]

Re: TSMC to make 4nm chips in Arizona for Apple, AMD, Nvidia

#157

Post by codedokode »

rapsey wrote: post #120
neonihil wrote: post #58

Poor Taiwanese people... their security insurance has just been cancelled. I wonder how many days after the first successful batches of chips coming out of the Arizona fab will China invade Taiwan. I do hope not, but realistically: with high-end chips being made on US soil, the US will have very little interest in protecting Taiwan, apart from maybe blocking China from also acquiring the tech.

One plant does not change the game that much. You still need TSMC to keep working on whatever the next tech will be as well as all their current production in Taiwan which is fully booked.

As I understand, one plant is enough to copy all secrets of nanofabrication and build similar plants.

Re: TSMC to make 4nm chips in Arizona for Apple, AMD, Nvidia

#158

Post by CoastalCoder »

squarefoot wrote: post #24

Hopefully we'll do something like that here in the EU too. We're experiencing the hard way how's like depending on the energy and resources of warmongering criminal dictators; it would be wise to start moving away from technological dependence on China asap.

China doesn't strike me as warmongering, per se.

My read is that China is expansionistic, and military power is just one tool in their toolbox.

Re: TSMC to make 4nm chips in Arizona for Apple, AMD, Nvidia

#159

Post by float4 »

justahuman74 wrote: post #130
float4 wrote: post #122

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why do we even want cutting edge fabs in Europe? We have no companies that design cutting edge logic chips here. Literally none. Why invest 20 billion dollars (or what is the price of a cutting edge fab these days?) to create supply without demand? Or do we seriously expect that US companies will generate significant demand even though TSMC and Samsung are already building heavily subsidized fabs in the US ?

> Or do we seriously expect that US companies will generate significant demand Yes I think so, presuming that there is not an over-supply of capacity. US companies would much rather rely on an EU country than one that is being threatened with invasion over a small gap of sea. US local supply will never be enough.

> US companies would much rather rely on an EU country

Agreed

> US local supply will never be enough.

But you won't just have US supply. You'll have US and Taiwanese supply, and I don't believe that Taiwan will happily let TSMC (the only cutting edge foundry left in the world, when you take Samsungs abysmal yields into account) build foundry redundancy in the western world.

But we'll see, you could definitely end up being right. I just hope we'll invest at least an equal amount of money into chip design.

Re: TSMC to make 4nm chips in Arizona for Apple, AMD, Nvidia

#160

Post by jasonwatkinspdx »

phpisthebest wrote: post #87
Aromasin wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Already being planned by Intel. They're building a new leading edge fab in Magdeburg, Germany [1]. This is backed by the new European Chips Act [2]. Wheels have started turning very quickly with regards to home-grown semiconductors in 2022. [1] https://www.intel.co.uk/content/www/uk/en/newsroom/news/eu-n... [2] https://ec.europa.eu/commission/presscorner/detail/en/ip_22_...

I always find it odd that companies always want to be build things outside of their home state TSMC -> US Intel -> EU Toyota -> US Honda -> US Ford -> MX / Canada GM -> MX / Canada

It's not that odd that international companies would build local facilities for major markets they're selling into. Toyota sold cars to the US, and building plants here made sense relative to that for a variety of economic and political reasons. Everyone makes more money together so everyone's happy with the arrangement.

I find it more odd to presume that corporations have some nationalistic competitive interest.

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