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Using rats to clear land mines in Cambodia

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Re: Using rats to clear land mines in Cambodia

#41
post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They should develop smart plants with a distributed root system, an overabundance of shoots, a preference for seeking mines, and a high threshold for shoot pain. This would also prepare us with countermeasure systems control for when the AI tries to take over.

What happens when the smart plants with a high tolerance for pain start taking over?

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Re: Using rats to clear land mines in Cambodia

#42

I would prefer to use US senators who refuse to ratify the Mine Ban Convention. They won't need any particular skills or training, just have them wander around possible UXO sites until they find one with their foot. The great thing about this is, US senators are a 100% renewable resource.

An interesting idea, although I think the US is actually ahead of the curve on mines. From Wikipedia: >> Opponents point out that the Ottawa Convention places no restriction whatsoever on anti-vehicle mines which kill civilians on tractors, on school buses, etc. The position of the United States is that the inhumane nature of landmines stems not from whether they are anti-personnel as opposed to antivehicle but from…

Well, my comment was highly abbreviated for the sake of pithiness, but US ratification of the treaty would be more meaningful than the US simply not employing landmines itself. (NB While I place all the blame on senators for not ratifying it, technically no US president has signed it, so the Senate hasn't actually had the opportunity to ratify, but Senate leaders have made their opposition clear for decades so they definitely deserve the blame I'm pointing in their direction.)

Furthermore, landmines haven't actually been a weapon that the US military has considered tactically useful in nearly 50 years, so saying that we won'ist use them (because they're not useful to us), but not pressuring other countries which may find them useful despite their horrific downsides, isn't exactly upstanding. And, the article title on HN is misleading, because this isn't just about landmines, it's about unexploded ordnance (UXO) more generally. The US, in addition to not signing the Mine Ban Convention, refuses to sign/ratify the Convention on Cluster Munitions, and has significant quantities of cluster munitions in the inventory, with an alarmingly high failure rate (meaning the munition doesn't detonate when it is supposed to, leaving dangerous UXO that only becomes more dangerous over time). So, yes, there's nuance, but honestly not enough to let US leaders off the hook for these horrors.

Re: Using rats to clear land mines in Cambodia

#43

I would prefer to use US senators who refuse to ratify the Mine Ban Convention. They won't need any particular skills or training, just have them wander around possible UXO sites until they find one with their foot. The great thing about this is, US senators are a 100% renewable resource.

An interesting idea, although I think the US is actually ahead of the curve on mines. From Wikipedia: >> Opponents point out that the Ottawa Convention places no restriction whatsoever on anti-vehicle mines which kill civilians on tractors, on school buses, etc. The position of the United States is that the inhumane nature of landmines stems not from whether they are anti-personnel as opposed to antivehicle but from…

> All US landmines now self-destruct in two days or less, in most cases four hours.

Supremely commendable, but it does seem remarkably short windows. I do wonder what troops on the ground, in 'busy', and highly stategic defensive positions, feel about having to re-lay the same mines every two days, let alone four hours: surely the enemy could take severe advantage?

Re: Using rats to clear land mines in Cambodia

#44
post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That only makes any sense if the government that laid the mines still exists after the conflict and wasn’t entirely insane in the first place. Read about the Khmer Rouge.

Arms need to come from someplace. In the case of the Khmer Rouge, those landmines were made by the chinese government 1. Sanctions could therefore land on china for not accounting for mines they created. For the case of governments that truly have no responisble parties remaining afterwards, say the land is littered with IEDs, then the UN should have funds set aside to go towards these efforts, just like how they hav…

You’re basically describing the facts as they are now. It is a massive international effort involving the UN the US and many other countries.

Oh and Cambodia itself which has agency even though it’s poor.

Re: Using rats to clear land mines in Cambodia

#45
post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think I've seen any examples in real life of this actually working, even though it seems to be the normal enforcement mechanism.

IMO because they don't sanction nearly enough

With your approach there's always the risk that your sanctions are worse for the population than the consequences of the mines, particularly because economic damage is compounding.

How do you deal with that?

Re: Using rats to clear land mines in Cambodia

#46

I would prefer to use US senators who refuse to ratify the Mine Ban Convention. They won't need any particular skills or training, just have them wander around possible UXO sites until they find one with their foot. The great thing about this is, US senators are a 100% renewable resource.

I resent your assumption that only US senators should do mine hunting. Surely politicians everywhere of whatever stripe are good enough for this job?

Re: Using rats to clear land mines in Cambodia

#47
post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

IMO because they don't sanction nearly enough

With your approach there's always the risk that your sanctions are worse for the population than the consequences of the mines, particularly because economic damage is compounding. How do you deal with that?

In theory, it’s irrational to give into threats in iterated games, or in one-shot games where your opponent can look at your code. (“We don’t negotiate with terrorists.”) So threatening sanctions shouldn’t work.

But in practice, when everyone knows you have a bazooka, you might not ever have to fire it.

Re: Using rats to clear land mines in Cambodia

#48

They should use AI driven mini robots that go around and blow up mines.

They should develop smart plants with a distributed root system, an overabundance of shoots, a preference for seeking mines, and a high threshold for shoot pain. This would also prepare us with countermeasure systems control for when the AI tries to take over.

Smart plants that turn red when their roots reach explosives have been around for close to twenty years.

Why have they not succeeded? Near as I can tell the Danish company that launched them experienced huge pushback because they were GMO's and this was the height of anti-GMO hysteria in Europe. The charities that would fund distribution wanted nothing to do with GMO plants - even if they saved lives.

I found one study that said the rats were more cost effective. The seeds had to be flown over the field and a great number of them refused to germinate.

Years later grass started being seeded with a moist paper mulch that contained a small amount of fertilizer. Would it work with these seeds? Far as I can tell the Danish company abandoned development of the product.

https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Plants_that_change_c...

Re: Using rats to clear land mines in Cambodia

#49
Slightly OT, but there's a great podcast about the era when these landmines were laid, In The Shadows of Utopia: https://www.shadowsofutopia.com/ The presenter takes the time to give a lot of historical context before getting into the Khmer Rouge etc. It's been a real education for me.

Re: Using rats to clear land mines in Cambodia

#50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

An interesting idea, although I think the US is actually ahead of the curve on mines. From Wikipedia: >> Opponents point out that the Ottawa Convention places no restriction whatsoever on anti-vehicle mines which kill civilians on tractors, on school buses, etc. The position of the United States is that the inhumane nature of landmines stems not from whether they are anti-personnel as opposed to antivehicle but from…

> All US landmines now self-destruct in two days or less, in most cases four hours. Supremely commendable, but it does seem remarkably short windows. I do wonder what troops on the ground, in 'busy', and highly stategic defensive positions, feel about having to re-lay the same mines every two days, let alone four hours: surely the enemy could take severe advantage?

I'd imagine that this simply means that the DoD expects to use them tactically as opposed to strategically in the field
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