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Ask HN: Why do so many CXOs hate talking to tech teams?

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Re: Ask HN: Why do so many CXOs hate talking to tech teams?

#31

Post by francisofascii »

saimiam wrote: post #9
gsatic wrote: post #8

It's a function of how both accumulate influence/respect/trust/power. The paths taken are (generally) very different. So what each thinks is possible or not is based on different paths travelled. For certain types of problems the paths will diverge. Some people handle this well and some people don't.

I'm finding your comment very abstract. Can you share an example of this in action?

Executives ascend the power/respect ladder by persuading, selling, influencing, meeting, communicating, negotiating with people, and winning over others. Now you have this tech person who has achieved similar power/status by not being good at any of those things. Tech people gain power/respect by studying, doing, building, understanding technology. People tend to like/respect people with qualities they want or respect. Reminds me of the Oppenheimer and Groves situation in which both sides must gain mutual respect for each other to be successful. https://www.atomicarchive.com/history/manhattan-project/p4s2...

Re: Ask HN: Why do so many CXOs hate talking to tech teams?

#32

Post by throwawayacc4 »

An aspect that no one here has mentioned but absolutely is a major reason:

Tech teams are littered with chronically online SJWs. When something as innocuous as an email about Domain Driven Design [0] can quickly go off the rails and be derided as misogynistic, it's tough to communicate. Executives are not used to dealing with groups that have such thin skin. You constantly have to walk on eggshells around tech teams, and even then something/anything may still trigger them.

[0] https://twitter.com/sarahmei/status/1073234104311734273

Re: Ask HN: Why do so many CXOs hate talking to tech teams?

#33

Post by LatteLazy »

notahacker wrote: post #28
LatteLazy wrote: post #22

I can only talk about my experience. I've been a dev but mostly done support and implication roles. I'm usually the the guy who uses the n-word with execs: "No". Execs hate that word. It ruins thier day. Sales, legal, compliance, product (and HR and finance) all say yes to whatever an exec says. They might think it's a bad idea but they can just do it anyway. Only tech people will give a hard no and say, up front, th…

> Sales, legal, compliance, product (and HR and finance) all say yes to whatever an exec says This isn't true at all. Legal and compliance are literally paid to say no to stuff (which does of course make the job of saying no easier). HR and Finance too, to a large extent. Sales are paid to say yes, but will still try as hard as possible to block anything that will hurt their performance figures/targets Though all of…

Where I have worked (mostly smaller companies but some tier 1s), it's very routine for an exec to over rule legal or compliance. As long as they're happy to sign off that's that. And that's the problem with technical issues: you can waive the risk of a regulator fining you, you cannot waive 1+1 not equalling 3.

Re: Ask HN: Why do so many CXOs hate talking to tech teams?

#34

Post by MathMonkeyMan »

menaerus wrote: post #25

Two different worlds. When I speak to a non-tech folks I try to re-adjust myself in a way so that I don't make them feel intimidated. Engineers tend to ask many questions, try to find illogical sequences in what is being discussed, raise doubts, propose alternatives etc. etc. We're trained to act in that way and I find that this is what is most irritating to non-tech people. Non-tech people don't know nor they _need_…

I'm probably lacking social intelligence, but it sounds to me that you're saying "non-tech folks" are full of shit and don't like to be told so.

Re: Ask HN: Why do so many CXOs hate talking to tech teams?

#35

Post by menaerus »

MathMonkeyMan wrote: post #34
menaerus wrote: post #25

Two different worlds. When I speak to a non-tech folks I try to re-adjust myself in a way so that I don't make them feel intimidated. Engineers tend to ask many questions, try to find illogical sequences in what is being discussed, raise doubts, propose alternatives etc. etc. We're trained to act in that way and I find that this is what is most irritating to non-tech people. Non-tech people don't know nor they _need_…

I'm probably lacking social intelligence, but it sounds to me that you're saying "non-tech folks" are full of shit and don't like to be told so.

Perhaps one could interpret my words like that but that's not my personal stance. I have a lot of friends which are not in the tech. I think that we're simply having different ways of reaching to conclusions. And often it's very challenging for me to understand the angle where they're coming from but I'm pretty sure that's what they think too. But nonetheless I believe there's an actual value in trying not to dismiss the opinions solely on the fact that I haven't found the argument, for example, convincing enough. I think it's really important to keep your mind open.

I also find similar patterns in conversations with folks with engineering degrees but who aren't in the R&D positions. Both of these two groups do perfectly well on their positions. That is somewhat interesting and which is why I occasionally start questioning our industry practices. At times they feel a bit unhealthy.

Re: Ask HN: Why do so many CXOs hate talking to tech teams?

#36

Post by sethammons »

throwawayacc4 wrote: post #32

An aspect that no one here has mentioned but absolutely is a major reason: Tech teams are littered with chronically online SJWs. When something as innocuous as an email about Domain Driven Design [0] can quickly go off the rails and be derided as misogynistic, it's tough to communicate. Executives are not used to dealing with groups that have such thin skin. You constantly have to walk on eggshells around tech teams,…

I had a (fantastic) VP of Eng that of about 100 engineers. He quipped about how being a parent prepared him for leading an org and several people got their feelings hurt thinking he called everyone childish. It became a thing he had to publicly apologize for. Ffs.

Re: Ask HN: Why do so many CXOs hate talking to tech teams?

#37

Post by troon-lover »

Archipelagia wrote: post #29

From my experience, big part of that comes from worrying about completely different things. To illustrate – my personal background is in sales/marketing (branching into tech), so that naturally (1) gives me a relatively wide view into our startup, and (2) forced me to develop people skills. And despite that, I still often found myself on calls where both our CEO and I were frustrated and felt we're talking past each…

No post body was provided.

Re: Ask HN: Why do so many CXOs hate talking to tech teams?

#38

Post by threegates »

menaerus wrote: post #35
MathMonkeyMan wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm probably lacking social intelligence, but it sounds to me that you're saying "non-tech folks" are full of shit and don't like to be told so.

Perhaps one could interpret my words like that but that's not my personal stance. I have a lot of friends which are not in the tech. I think that we're simply having different ways of reaching to conclusions. And often it's very challenging for me to understand the angle where they're coming from but I'm pretty sure that's what they think too. But nonetheless I believe there's an actual value in trying not to dismiss…

Further to this point... Questions have a cost. In other fields, they are used more judiciously and more is inferred, so conversions don't resemble the tiresome socratic method that often.

Re: Ask HN: Why do so many CXOs hate talking to tech teams?

#39

Post by logicalmonster »

I don't think that MBTI is the be-all, end-all explanation of all human interaction, but I think it's a good lens to partially think about the world through. You're going to find a significant overrepresentation of INTPs in the tech field. (citation: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=946249)

And this type basically perceives and interacts with the world in a very different way than people who tend to gravitate to management positions: (it can be anybody, but I think ESTJs have more of a tendency to seek out management roles)

You basically have 2 different ways of looking at the world forced to interact. It can be uncomfortable for everybody.

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