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John Resig: JavaScript as a First Language

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Re: John Resig: JavaScript as a First Language

#11

Post by catshirt »

yuvadam wrote: post #4

tl;dr - they picked JS due to its "ubiquity, desirability in the larger workforce, lack of prior installation requirements, and ability to create something that's easy to share with friends" I find that explanation disturbing. Why not start from a language that teaches the basics of the common programming paradigms, such as OOP (Java) or FP (Scheme)?

for new programmers, the entry barrier for those languages is significantly greater than javascript. people don't quit learning programming because they're not learning OOP- they quit because it's inaccessible.

Re: John Resig: JavaScript as a First Language

#12

Post by kevingadd »

bradleyland wrote: post #5
absconditus wrote: post #2

Javascript is an absolutely horrible language to use for such purposes. There are far too many gotchas. See the following for numerous examples: http://stackoverflow.com/questions/1995113/strangest-languag...

One might say the same about the English language, yet it is taught in classrooms all across the United States, despite the fact that the U.S. has no codified national language. English is the de facto national language, but nothing more. So why Javascript as a first language? Probably the best argument is that it has the widest reach of any programming language in use today because Javascript will run in any web bro…

If widest reach is your criteria, Java and C would also be equally good choices. Unless the web browser is special in some particular way that makes it 'more worthy' than other execution environments?

Re: John Resig: JavaScript as a First Language

#13

Post by city41 »

On a similar note, I've been in the process of creating a JavaScript library[0] that is strongly inspired by _why's Shoes. My intent for doing this was to create a DSL where one can whip up webapps very quickly. But I'm also now looking into essentially recreating Hackety Hack on the web, and maybe having a simple way for very young people to get a taste of programming. Sadly JS isn't as DSL friendly as Ruby.

[0] https://github.com/city41/Joeys

Re: John Resig: JavaScript as a First Language

#14

Post by hello_moto »

maximusprime wrote: post #3
absconditus wrote: post #2

Javascript is an absolutely horrible language to use for such purposes. There are far too many gotchas. See the following for numerous examples: http://stackoverflow.com/questions/1995113/strangest-languag...

Disagree... for example from the link: In JavaScript: '5' + 3 gives '53' Whereas '5' - 3 gives 2 That's just logical and obvious, since "+" is both numerical addition, and string concatenation, but "-" is only numerical subtraction, and the '5' starts out as a string. Every language has 'gotchas'. Doesn't really matter which you pick to learn first at all. The more important thing is that you don't give up. possibly…

That's definitely not obvious. Some people think in patterns or generalizations.

String [binary_operator] Number = String

String [binary_operator] Number = Number

That's just begging for further explanation.

Explaining JavaScript is probably more challenging than say Java. Java has many keywords and usages, but when it comes to explaining the concept of those keywords/semantics to students, it may be a little bit less confusing.

Re: John Resig: JavaScript as a First Language

#15

Post by maximusprime »

barrkel wrote: post #10
maximusprime wrote: post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Disagree... for example from the link: In JavaScript: '5' + 3 gives '53' Whereas '5' - 3 gives 2 That's just logical and obvious, since "+" is both numerical addition, and string concatenation, but "-" is only numerical subtraction, and the '5' starts out as a string. Every language has 'gotchas'. Doesn't really matter which you pick to learn first at all. The more important thing is that you don't give up. possibly…

It's logical and obvious if you already know the language; otherwise, it's perverse. I had to read your comment (the initial edit of it) twice to be sure you weren't being sarcastic.

No it's not.

Logically, the only other thing that could happen is for an "error" or "exception" be thrown when you do

  '5' - 3
There's really only 2 choices. Either convert the '5' to a number and subtract, or throw a hissy fit because it's a string.

That's not perverse. It's very logical.

Re: John Resig: JavaScript as a First Language

#16

Post by raganwald »

yuvadam wrote: post #4

tl;dr - they picked JS due to its "ubiquity, desirability in the larger workforce, lack of prior installation requirements, and ability to create something that's easy to share with friends" I find that explanation disturbing. Why not start from a language that teaches the basics of the common programming paradigms, such as OOP (Java) or FP (Scheme)?

You may have a different perspective, but if I wanted to teach OOP to new programmers, Java would be the last language I would consider, not the first. It’s a fine language in a vocational setting where the objective is to graduate people for employment as Java programmers, of course.

Scheme is elegant and small, and a traditional choice for teaching programming where functions are first-class objects. If you consider Scheme appropriate for FP, my guess is that you’d also consider SmallTalk appropriate for teaching OOP.

Re: John Resig: JavaScript as a First Language

#17

Post by hello_moto »

catshirt wrote: post #11
yuvadam wrote: post #4

tl;dr - they picked JS due to its "ubiquity, desirability in the larger workforce, lack of prior installation requirements, and ability to create something that's easy to share with friends" I find that explanation disturbing. Why not start from a language that teaches the basics of the common programming paradigms, such as OOP (Java) or FP (Scheme)?

for new programmers, the entry barrier for those languages is significantly greater than javascript. people don't quit learning programming because they're not learning OOP- they quit because it's inaccessible.

While that may be true (it's definitely take more steps to get your feet wet in Java), my experience with JS is otherwise until Node.JS arrives.

I just don't have time to twiddle with document object (DOM API) just to see results.

Re: John Resig: JavaScript as a First Language

#18

Post by maximusprime »

kevingadd wrote: post #7
maximusprime wrote: post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Disagree... for example from the link: In JavaScript: '5' + 3 gives '53' Whereas '5' - 3 gives 2 That's just logical and obvious, since "+" is both numerical addition, and string concatenation, but "-" is only numerical subtraction, and the '5' starts out as a string. Every language has 'gotchas'. Doesn't really matter which you pick to learn first at all. The more important thing is that you don't give up. possibly…

Calling your example logical and obvious is only logical and obvious if you're completely trapped within the JS mindset. It's the same as how people defend the absurd semantics of Visual Basic and PHP. It's fine if you like it, but to claim that it's objectively okay is just not supported by fact. It's also worth considering that even if every language has 'gotchas', some of them have far worse gotchas than others. I…

See my comment below. It's not about being trapped in any mindset. It's about thinking logically.

Either '5' - 3 results in an error of some kind, or it evaluates to 2. There is no other logical outcome. Javascript chooses to do the latter.

I also disagree that starting language matters. It's like saying you need to have a steinway grand to learn the piano properly.

Learning is about learning what not to do just as much, if not more, than what to do.

Also if you learn to swim through syrup, imagine how fast you'll be when you try swimming through water...

Re: John Resig: JavaScript as a First Language

#19

Post by maximusprime »

kevingadd wrote: post #12
bradleyland wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One might say the same about the English language, yet it is taught in classrooms all across the United States, despite the fact that the U.S. has no codified national language. English is the de facto national language, but nothing more. So why Javascript as a first language? Probably the best argument is that it has the widest reach of any programming language in use today because Javascript will run in any web bro…

If widest reach is your criteria, Java and C would also be equally good choices. Unless the web browser is special in some particular way that makes it 'more worthy' than other execution environments?

Everyone already has a browser, which includes a profiler, debugger, REPL etc.

Not everyone has a c compiler or JDK, or wants the hassle of having to set them up just to start learning.

Re: John Resig: JavaScript as a First Language

#20

Post by absconditus »

maximusprime wrote: post #3
absconditus wrote: post #2

Javascript is an absolutely horrible language to use for such purposes. There are far too many gotchas. See the following for numerous examples: http://stackoverflow.com/questions/1995113/strangest-languag...

Disagree... for example from the link: In JavaScript: '5' + 3 gives '53' Whereas '5' - 3 gives 2 That's just logical and obvious, since "+" is both numerical addition, and string concatenation, but "-" is only numerical subtraction, and the '5' starts out as a string. Every language has 'gotchas'. Doesn't really matter which you pick to learn first at all. The more important thing is that you don't give up. possibly…

You picked one of a dozen or more examples from one list of problems with JavaScript. Of course this particular example can be understood by those of us who already have programming experience. JavaScript's type coercion is likely to be a big stumbling block for many beginners and Resig specifically points this out.
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