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The best Go framework: no framework?

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Re: The best Go framework: no framework?

#41

Post by Thaxll »

Spiwux wrote: post #23

I couldn't disagree with this any harder. I'm a Java BE Engineer who joined a Go shop, so I have a direct comparison. Both are microservice environments for products of similar complexity. It is insane to me how much less productive Go is for your average microservice enterprise environment. I'm sure it's great for systems programming or tool development. I like the simplicity. But the ecosystem is borderline useless…

You're saying that grpc and protobuf are over engineered but you're happy with Spring?

gRPC and protobuf are just transport and serialization, they have nothing to do with business logic, on the other hand Spring is a heavy, bloated framework.

Most Java frameworks are complicated backed by layers of abstraction and black magic.

btw no framework does not mean you don't use any library, there are some good lib aka micro framework that have everything you need to build modern and decent api servers.

https://github.com/go-chi/chi

https://echo.labstack.com/

Re: The best Go framework: no framework?

#42

Post by bauerd »

dinkleberg wrote: post #35
bauerd wrote: post #20

You also get to implement stuff like CSRF protection, cookie signing, anti session fixation, etc. You also lose out on community contributions because you are your own community now. You also better have stellar internal documentation because onboarding developers is going to be a pain otherwise. 99% of cases people are better off using a boring conventional web framework and implementing their actual business logic…

I agree with you that not using a framework requires you to think more about these things, but if you’re using a routing library like chi or gin there are plenty of libraries adding such functionality to them.

Yes you can put in the work and zip a bunch of libraries up into your own home-brew framework. But I doubt it's time worth spent for most teams.

Re: The best Go framework: no framework?

#44

Post by pdpi »

asim wrote: post #32
Spiwux wrote: post #23

I couldn't disagree with this any harder. I'm a Java BE Engineer who joined a Go shop, so I have a direct comparison. Both are microservice environments for products of similar complexity. It is insane to me how much less productive Go is for your average microservice enterprise environment. I'm sure it's great for systems programming or tool development. I like the simplicity. But the ecosystem is borderline useless…

This 100%. I think the people largely arguing for no frameworks have no idea what real productivity looks like at large scale engineering orgs. This mostly means you are not handcrafting libraries. There is a dedicated team who manages platform tooling including the frameworks/SDKs you use. Product teams may contribute to that but they will mostly be consumers. I always equate this to car manufacturing. I am not buyi…

“Real productivity at large scale engineering orgs” means a bazillion different things, because a big org can afford to have different teams specialise in different things.

No-framework Go makes the most sense to me, because a big framework doesn’t make sense for all types of project, and the set of projects where I’d reach for a big framework just doesn’t intersect _at all_ with the set of projects where I’d reach for Go.

Re: The best Go framework: no framework?

#45

Post by agotterer »

Thaxll wrote: post #41
Spiwux wrote: post #23

I couldn't disagree with this any harder. I'm a Java BE Engineer who joined a Go shop, so I have a direct comparison. Both are microservice environments for products of similar complexity. It is insane to me how much less productive Go is for your average microservice enterprise environment. I'm sure it's great for systems programming or tool development. I like the simplicity. But the ecosystem is borderline useless…

You're saying that grpc and protobuf are over engineered but you're happy with Spring? gRPC and protobuf are just transport and serialization, they have nothing to do with business logic, on the other hand Spring is a heavy, bloated framework. Most Java frameworks are complicated backed by layers of abstraction and black magic. btw no framework does not mean you don't use any library, there are some good lib aka micr…

Twirp (by TwitchTV) is a good gRPC alternative. It’s significantly lighter and easier to use.

Re: The best Go framework: no framework?

#46

Post by linza »

Spiwux wrote: post #23

I couldn't disagree with this any harder. I'm a Java BE Engineer who joined a Go shop, so I have a direct comparison. Both are microservice environments for products of similar complexity. It is insane to me how much less productive Go is for your average microservice enterprise environment. I'm sure it's great for systems programming or tool development. I like the simplicity. But the ecosystem is borderline useless…

You didn't specify what you meant with "more productive", but if it means "being able to produce more code in less amount of time" then i agree that one can be faster with frameworks/Java.

If you look at the problem more holistically (say "run a reliable service customers want to use") then that metric is just one of many, and more often than not counterproductive vs some other metrics like maintainability and resilience for instance. IME frameworks reflect that and only let you write code fast, or get the hello-world-demo out fast, but neglect the later stages.

I don't know if the conclusion is no framework is better overall, but the frameworks i worked with at least showed mixed results overall.

Re: The best Go framework: no framework?

#47

Post by GiorgioG »

The problem with not using established frameworks for building apps is that you'll wind up creating your own ad-hoc 'framework'. As your app (and the framework) evolves it becomes more feature-rich, it will be difficult for people to ramp up/understand. They won't be able to Google/Stackoverflow for problems they're having because nobody else on earth is using their 'framework'. Then people will want features you've not implemented or thought about, so now you need a framework committee to decide what's in, what's out.

No thanks. Give me ASP.NET Core, Django, Spring Boot for a development organization with more than 1 developer.

Re: The best Go framework: no framework?

#48

Post by nf17 »

asim wrote: post #32
Spiwux wrote: post #23

I couldn't disagree with this any harder. I'm a Java BE Engineer who joined a Go shop, so I have a direct comparison. Both are microservice environments for products of similar complexity. It is insane to me how much less productive Go is for your average microservice enterprise environment. I'm sure it's great for systems programming or tool development. I like the simplicity. But the ecosystem is borderline useless…

This 100%. I think the people largely arguing for no frameworks have no idea what real productivity looks like at large scale engineering orgs. This mostly means you are not handcrafting libraries. There is a dedicated team who manages platform tooling including the frameworks/SDKs you use. Product teams may contribute to that but they will mostly be consumers. I always equate this to car manufacturing. I am not buyi…

micro.dev is different from an actual go framework go-micro.dev ?? (https://github.com/go-micro/go-micro)

Re: The best Go framework: no framework?

#49

Post by asim »

pdpi wrote: post #44
asim wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This 100%. I think the people largely arguing for no frameworks have no idea what real productivity looks like at large scale engineering orgs. This mostly means you are not handcrafting libraries. There is a dedicated team who manages platform tooling including the frameworks/SDKs you use. Product teams may contribute to that but they will mostly be consumers. I always equate this to car manufacturing. I am not buyi…

“Real productivity at large scale engineering orgs” means a bazillion different things, because a big org can afford to have different teams specialise in different things. No-framework Go makes the most sense to me, because a big framework doesn’t make sense for all types of project, and the set of projects where I’d reach for a big framework just doesn’t intersect _at all_ with the set of projects where I’d reach f…

It goes back to, what is a framework and what qualifies as a big framework here. I think classic rails isn't the fit, but something that's an extension of gRPC definitely works. What gets handcrafted is a lot of layers around gRPC or far more stuff around HTTP.

When I'm working on personal projects, frameworks don't make sense for me. When I'm trying to engineer something at scale e.g https://m3o.com then I need that standardisation at the platform layer, the framework layer, the API layer.

Re: The best Go framework: no framework?

#50

Post by tyingq »

can3p wrote: post #40

This article makes an assumption: you know how to build the application better than framework developers do, which is not the case in general. Django docs are tremendous and you probably do not need most of it but in reality many of them cover real-world cases and do it in a good way. Sure, it may be a question of minimal code to implement it in go, but you have to know that you need this specific feature and you nee…

I would also add things like http cache headers, http compression, retries + backoff, mapping to http response codes, etc.
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