Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

US reps urge DOJ to investigate anticompetitive conduct affecting apartment rent

klobuchar.senate.gov

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

91–100 of 168 posts

Re: US reps urge DOJ to investigate anticompetitive conduct affecting apartment rent

#91

Post by larsiusprime »

capableweb wrote: post #87
larsiusprime wrote: post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You actually don't have to get an education and healthcare, although you ideally really should . But you can't opt out of physically existing in a location so long as you're still alive. And I've seen compelling evidence that inflation in healthcare and education is at least partially downstream of the housing crisis.

In that same vein, you don't really have to have a home, although you really should . With that type of thinking, the only thing you really really require to live is air, food and water, anything besides that you don't really require but is merely optional. You can live outside in a tent or under a couple of moving boxes. Myself I'd say that both having a roof over your head, education, healthcare and a bunch of othe…

> Myself I'd say that both having a roof over your head, education, healthcare and a bunch of other stuff is a human right, but I digress.

I mean I agree, you're missing my point.

> You can live outside in a tent or under a couple of moving boxes.

Not legally in a lot of places you can't! The point I'm making is that while we need (and should have as a right) many good things, the need to have a home is a particularly special one because locations are in fixed supply, and not even for one minute can you opt out of existing in a location, and every location that people want to exist in is currently owned by somebody, most of whom aren't interested in sharing.

And wouldn't you know it? Locations that have steady access to all that other good stuff (education, healthcare, bunch of other stuff) tend to be way more expensive than other locations, precisely because they gatekeep access to them.

Re: US reps urge DOJ to investigate anticompetitive conduct affecting apartment rent

#92

Post by jmyeet »

thriftwy wrote: post #29
jmyeet wrote: post #21

Price controls are ineffective long term but can be a useful stopgap measure in the short term. The only solution to this is dealing with supplyside issues, notably the artificial constraints on housing supply. This is longer term.So the pricing algorithms are a natural reaction to market forces. Here are some more important things you can do in the short term to increase supply: 1. Outlaw (at the local and state lev…

If you tax second homes, people will not buy these, not put them out for rent, and developers will build fewer real estate. This may only benefit if you have already borked your real estate market so that virtually nothing gets built anyway.

If you believe this I'm afraid that you have successfully been brainwashed by Atlas Shrugged propaganda that dominates American politics. It is the idea that we have to kowtow to bosses ("capitalists") otherwise they won't provide those jobs or will leave. It's a ridiculou snotion.

The only thing that will stop capitalists doing capitalism is that it won't be profitable.

In a lot of places we aren't building things because we can't (eg in most of the US it is quite literally illegal to build anything other than SFHs) and what we are building in a lot of places isn't aimed at normal people (eg the ultra-luxury skinny-tall towers in Manhattan).

Re: US reps urge DOJ to investigate anticompetitive conduct affecting apartment rent

#93

Post by ceejayoz »

brookst wrote: post #76
cheriot wrote: post #30

> pricing algorithms to adjust prices on vacant apartments in real time… The program may also induce landlords to charge the rents recommended by the algorithm, putting upward pressure on prices and decreasing the availability of affordable apartments. Wait until she hears about hotels and flights. > The software analyzes non-public data that RealPage gathers from its property management clients, including confidenti…

> Wait until she hears about hotels and flights. What is the single pricing system that the majority of hotels or flights use? If there is one, and it's used for tacit coordination of prices, then yes, that should be pursued as an illegal cartel as well. But my understanding was that each airline uses their own yield management algorithms. Delta does not use software that knows about price increases at American befor…

In fact, the airlines got caught doing this a while back.

https://www.propublica.org/article/yieldstar-rent-increase-r...

> Competing airlines began using common software to share planned routes and prices with each other before they became public. The technology helped head off price wars that would have lowered ticket prices, the Department of Justice said.

> The department said the arrangement may have artificially inflated airfares, estimating the cost to consumers at more than a billion dollars between 1988 and 1992. The government eventually reached settlements or consent decrees for price fixing with eight airlines, including Alaska Airlines, all of which agreed to change how they used the technology.

Re: US reps urge DOJ to investigate anticompetitive conduct affecting apartment rent

#94

Post by edmundsauto »

telotortium wrote: post #86
edmundsauto wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've always wondered why no 12 month leases. I think it's to avoid seasonally stacking renewals, which would depress prices? (Think "college students moving in each fall")

I think in this case, it may be because it's December and they don't want to have to rent it out in this season next year? I rented an apartment in December once (moving for work), and I might have gotten a better price due to that. Also good to stagger lease expirations so not everyone is moving in and out at the same time.

I lived in the Bay Area from 2018-2021 and never saw 12 month options. I think I signed leases in December, February, and May-ish. But yeah, sounds like a way to avoid seasonality.

Re: US reps urge DOJ to investigate anticompetitive conduct affecting apartment rent

#95

Post by nxm »

vwoolf wrote: post #90
cheriot wrote: post #30

> pricing algorithms to adjust prices on vacant apartments in real time… The program may also induce landlords to charge the rents recommended by the algorithm, putting upward pressure on prices and decreasing the availability of affordable apartments. Wait until she hears about hotels and flights. > The software analyzes non-public data that RealPage gathers from its property management clients, including confidenti…

Someone should do something really wild and tell Congress about how local municipalities restrict the supply of housing, which raises prices. This allows owners of said real estate to extract very high rents, while limiting effective competition, harming consumers. It's wild! The DoJ should start with an antitrust investigation of Atherton.

Or preserve the character of their neighborhood. Not everyone wants to be surrounded by 4 story buildings

Re: US reps urge DOJ to investigate anticompetitive conduct affecting apartment rent

#96

Post by juve1996 »

cheriot wrote: post #30

> pricing algorithms to adjust prices on vacant apartments in real time… The program may also induce landlords to charge the rents recommended by the algorithm, putting upward pressure on prices and decreasing the availability of affordable apartments. Wait until she hears about hotels and flights. > The software analyzes non-public data that RealPage gathers from its property management clients, including confidenti…

> Wait until she hears about hotels and flights.

Are they all using the same program and colluding on pricing?

Re: US reps urge DOJ to investigate anticompetitive conduct affecting apartment rent

#97

Post by bobthepanda »

telotortium wrote: post #86
edmundsauto wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've always wondered why no 12 month leases. I think it's to avoid seasonally stacking renewals, which would depress prices? (Think "college students moving in each fall")

I think in this case, it may be because it's December and they don't want to have to rent it out in this season next year? I rented an apartment in December once (moving for work), and I might have gotten a better price due to that. Also good to stagger lease expirations so not everyone is moving in and out at the same time.

At least where I live (Seattle) it’s known landlords deliberately shift leases to end in summer, which is when rents are higher due to new graduates moving to the area and spiking demand. If you get offered in summer you’ll get 12-month as the cheapest.

Coincidentally there’s a class action suit against landlords in Seattle about the subject of the article.

Re: US reps urge DOJ to investigate anticompetitive conduct affecting apartment rent

#98

Post by mihaic »

mikebenfield wrote: post #53
jmyeet wrote: post #21

Price controls are ineffective long term but can be a useful stopgap measure in the short term. The only solution to this is dealing with supplyside issues, notably the artificial constraints on housing supply. This is longer term.So the pricing algorithms are a natural reaction to market forces. Here are some more important things you can do in the short term to increase supply: 1. Outlaw (at the local and state lev…

I don’t understand this perspective. Are you really confident those measures will increase supply? I’m not. I find it really hard to predict what the outcome of any of those measures would be. How about this one: 4. Stop artificially restricting the goddamn housing supply and catering NIMBYs, and instead allow housing of reasonable quantity and density to be built.

While NIMBY might be a cause in some parts of the US, absurd increases in housing costs are happening worldwide, in all kinds of markets. The only way for housing to become affordable is to have homeowners take a hit in their valuation, every other solution is ultimately futile.

Re: US reps urge DOJ to investigate anticompetitive conduct affecting apartment rent

#99

Post by brookst »

ceejayoz wrote: post #93
brookst wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Wait until she hears about hotels and flights. What is the single pricing system that the majority of hotels or flights use? If there is one, and it's used for tacit coordination of prices, then yes, that should be pursued as an illegal cartel as well. But my understanding was that each airline uses their own yield management algorithms. Delta does not use software that knows about price increases at American befor…

In fact, the airlines got caught doing this a while back. https://www.propublica.org/article/yieldstar-rent-increase-r... > Competing airlines began using common software to share planned routes and prices with each other before they became public. The technology helped head off price wars that would have lowered ticket prices, the Department of Justice said. > The department said the arrangement may have artificiall…

Interesting. Thank you! Sounds like that as addressed appropriately then.

Re: US reps urge DOJ to investigate anticompetitive conduct affecting apartment rent

#100

Post by Aunche »

rtpg wrote: post #44
cheriot wrote: post #30

> pricing algorithms to adjust prices on vacant apartments in real time… The program may also induce landlords to charge the rents recommended by the algorithm, putting upward pressure on prices and decreasing the availability of affordable apartments. Wait until she hears about hotels and flights. > The software analyzes non-public data that RealPage gathers from its property management clients, including confidenti…

Hotels and flights are, granted, less essential than a place to live. Remember, you _have to live somewhere_. That is a functional difference compared to other "market-based" things (never mind that "market-based solutions" are a lot less workable when atomicity is lost. Yeah yeah, regulations making things harder to build, I think more should be built! But there are real, "wanted" things in the way of just having ma…

A place to live is a market based thing. There's no real difference between what RealPage is doing with housing, and what the CME Group is doing with crops. They both facilitate price discovery. The CME also is helping farmers maximize their profits. The difference is that farmers are allowed to grow as much crops as they want (perhaps a little too much in drought-prone areas), so food prices grow much more reasonably than rents. Meanwhile, developers aren't allowed to build enough housing to meet demand, so of course rents and home prices will skyrocket.
Post reply on HN