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BlockFi files for bankruptcy as FTX fallout spreads

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Re: BlockFi files for bankruptcy as FTX fallout spreads

#301

My wife and I had about 10% of our life savings in BlockFi. This is a pretty big blow for us, especially while gearing up to start a family. It's easily in the top 5 worst things to happen to me in my life. Is there any hope of individual creditors getting any of their money back? I'm unfamiliar with how bankruptcy works.

> I'm unfamiliar with how bankruptcy works.

I'm not a specialist in the area, but here's my explanation as a financial professional.

When a company goes bankrupt, it's assets and liabilities are summarized by an administrator who is hired. Typically a well known firm with lots of experience, and they will do things like find out where the assets are, possibly liquidating some of them. You may have seen that FTX has a new CEO. They are in fact empowered to run the company.

There's then something called the capital structure, basically an order in which liabilities are paid to creditors.

First of all, you want the admin to want to bother doing the work. So they come first in the queue of people.

There's then the tax man (actually, which comes first, admin or tax? Might depend on where you are).

Then there are secured creditors. For instance you might have a factory with equipment, and some loan was made against the equipment. Or you have property and a mortgage against it.

Then there are unsecured creditors, like employees owed final payments.

Depending on how complicated the firm is, the whole credit part of the capital can get super complicated, basically tranches where each junior tranche is only paid if senior tranches are fully paid.

It's unusual, but if somehow the assets exceed the liabilities, the equity holders will get the rest. Don't count on that, because it's unusual for such a firm to go bankrupt.

Now with high profile bankruptcies there are sometimes investors who will buy your position in the queue. If you get an offer the gamble is basically that it's worth your while to get out immediately and let the bankruptcy speculator deal with all the BS as well as the waiting time to get the money eventually. A friend of mine got offered this from Lehman, turned it down, got paid pretty reasonably, eventually.

Re: BlockFi files for bankruptcy as FTX fallout spreads

#302
post #272
post #215

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, I see all my downvotes. I'm not saying it because I strongly favor OR hate either of these systems. I'm not here trying to say "Fiat is dumb and evil and crypto will save us all." I'm just saying because it's the truth. We don't do real "fractional reserves," we don't have "gold" etc. Our money is backed up by "America, with the guns, is good for this made up money," which I believe is generally true, and not a…

For a highly technical and intelligent group that is HN, being blanket negative on crypto is the battle cry, but pointing out how fiat is largely based on fiction as well ("faith" written next to a stone mason eye in a pyramid) is not tolerated.

> but pointing out how fiat is largely based on fiction as well ("faith" written next to a stone mason eye in a pyramid) is not tolerated.

Or maybe it is just not useful, and acts as a distraction. Getting into another 'why fiat backed by the USA works while monopoly money from the boardgame (or cryptocurrencies) does not' is pointless because no one who makes that argument really cares about the difference, they just want to point out that 'everything is made up'.

Re: BlockFi files for bankruptcy as FTX fallout spreads

#303

Bitcoiners have been saying this whole time not to keep your crypto with a 3rd party and this is exactly why. Satoshis original message about Bitcoin mentions explicitly you don't need any trusted third party. A whole lot of people think they can make money outsmarting the original concepts of Bitcoin and they get scammed in new ways each cycle. https://nakamotoinstitute.org/trusted-third-parties/

How, practically does this work? Is it a password that you remember? What happens if you forget, or lose the piece of paper or hard drive it's written on? Do you end up like the guy trying to dig through landfill? ( https://www.thecitizen.co.tz/tanzania/news/business/the-sear... ) Or is the answer, "don't forget"? This doesn't work for most people.

You use a cold wallet, that is, a secure element storing your private key. Those chips are physically isolated from the computer and cannot be tempered with.

If you lose your device (which should NEVER happen, it's a safe, not a purse), your keys are still encrypted with your PIN code and the device will self erase after 3 unsuccessful attempts.

You can retrieve your private key from a 24 word sequence (seed key), which you will usually store on a fire proof and water proof medium like a like a billfodl or stamped washers. For added security, the private key will be derived from the seed plus an additional passphrase only known to you (kind of like a salt), so your key doesn't get compromised if someone gets his hands on your seed.

Cold wallets didn't exist by the time of the incident you mention.

https://steemit.com/cryptocurrency/@angelol/cryptocurrency-h...

Re: BlockFi files for bankruptcy as FTX fallout spreads

#304

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I talked to an employee that left last spring. She said they had literally no idea what they were doing. The founders are just ivy educated 30 year olds. So they decided to just start hiring everyone they could from paypal, to move into "blockchain payments". They paid huge sums. The directors there had no experience ever managing huge teams of people. It was a giant mess of unqualified people funded by cheap capital…

> They've raised about a billion dollars of VC - https://www.crunchbase.com/organization/blockfi-inc/investor ... > talked to an employee that left last spring. She said they had literally no idea what they were doing. The founders are just ivy educated 30 year olds So was SBF (MIT) and raised from Sequoia and Blackrok and his GF was a Stanford'ite with a Math degree and is responsible for the largest loss of funds f…

Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain!

Re: BlockFi files for bankruptcy as FTX fallout spreads

#305

Somehow these guys peaked at about 900 employees, according to linkedin ( https://www.linkedin.com/company/blockfi ) They've raised about a billion dollars of VC - https://www.crunchbase.com/organization/blockfi-inc/investor... (note, CB lists $1.4b, of which 400M is debt from FTX, which I imagine they never got) Unbelievable the amount of destruction of value here... it's just total carnage.

I talked to an employee that left last spring. She said they had literally no idea what they were doing. The founders are just ivy educated 30 year olds. So they decided to just start hiring everyone they could from paypal, to move into "blockchain payments". They paid huge sums. The directors there had no experience ever managing huge teams of people. It was a giant mess of unqualified people funded by cheap capital…

Here is the model, as I currently understand it:

1) some people are rich and want to get richer

2) Ivy educated VCs invest money for group (1) in start-up companies, while paying themselves handsomely with that same pool of money

3) Ivy educated kids start companies using money from group (2), while paying themselves handsomely with that same pool of money

4) sometimes, through a combo of hard work, skill and luck, things work out and everyone makes more money than was spent

5) sometimes, because they are mostly, actually a bunch of yahoos and/or scammers, things don't work out and group (1) loses their money

There are some oversimplifications here, but in general, this seems to be the way.

Re: BlockFi files for bankruptcy as FTX fallout spreads

#307
post #184

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Both. If you take 900 reasonably skilled people and direct them towards nonsense for a few years, that is definite value lost to society. It sounds like $1 billion in actual cash was lost this way. And the buildings they were in could have housed useful activity, the computers they bought could have done useful things, etc. Those people could have been doing useful things. And it sounds like their activities were wor…

Yes imagine how many more ads these 900 people could crank into your feed if they worked at FB. Truly a lost opportunity to put their skills at work for the greater good.

Because these are the only two options that exist for software-capable people. Come on.

Re: BlockFi files for bankruptcy as FTX fallout spreads

#308
post #253

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can I ask why? If you wanted to put money into crypto, why didn't you use a blockchain where you could verify your holdings and nobody could take them from you? BlockFi was just an incredibly shitty bank.

Even with 10% losses he lost less than those storing equity in ultra boring indexes. Honestly anybody who only lost 10% in the last year looks like a genius (crypto included).

Not really. There are good reasons to lose money and there are bad reasons to lose money. This was a bad one.

Re: BlockFi files for bankruptcy as FTX fallout spreads

#309
post #253

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can I ask why? If you wanted to put money into crypto, why didn't you use a blockchain where you could verify your holdings and nobody could take them from you? BlockFi was just an incredibly shitty bank.

Even with 10% losses he lost less than those storing equity in ultra boring indexes. Honestly anybody who only lost 10% in the last year looks like a genius (crypto included).

Your math assumes he lost 0% on the rest of his savings, while "those storing equity in ultra boring indexes" where storing 100% of their savings there. Is that really a fair accounting, in your opinion?

Re: BlockFi files for bankruptcy as FTX fallout spreads

#310
post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you think self-custody is simple enough for mass adoption by non-technical users?

Self-custody is simple - just download a wallet app and preserve your seed words. However, it's intimidating and requires a lot of personal responsibility.

> preserve your seed words

You've already lost most users. My parents call me weekly because I'm their password manager. They're not the only ones.

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