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The entire crypto ecosystem is a ponzi

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Re: The entire crypto ecosystem is a ponzi

#171

Post by everfree »

__jem wrote: post #169
everfree wrote: post #126

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If Google decided to keep their profits on their balance sheet instead of paying dividends or doing buybacks, what would my recourse be? I can't just vote in a dividend, because founders Larry and Sergey control 51% of the voting power. Shares don't entitle you to profits at all.

Just because I can't walk into Google headquarters and demand a dividend doesn't mean that I don't still own some portion of those profits. Yes, finance is complicated, but there's no corporate board on this planet that would accept indefinite stockpiling of cash, which is why buybacks happen, including for Google!

> Just because I can't walk into Google headquarters and demand a dividend doesn't mean that I don't still own some portion of those profits.

"Own" in what sense? You can't request them, you can't even vote for them to be spent in a certain way, and there's no guarantee that they'll be paid to you.

Someone once said this about NFTs but it also applies to the idea of Google stock as "ownership of profits" - it's like having a wife that you never seem to have time with, but you don't have to worry because you have the paperwork which says you are married to her.

> there's no corporate board on this planet that would accept indefinite stockpiling of cash, which is why buybacks happen, including for Google!

The board is appointed by voters. Those voters are Sergey and Larry. Sergey and Larry determine whether buybacks happen.

Re: The entire crypto ecosystem is a ponzi

#172

Post by Kye »

monero-xmr wrote: post #120
jeremyjh wrote: post #116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes that's why they accept it at Amazon and Alibaba right?

Here is a list of services that accept crypto directly https://kycnot.me/

It's like a who's who of cryptocurrency-based black markets and facilitators.

Re: The entire crypto ecosystem is a ponzi

#173

Post by ifeeltriedboss »

stickfigure wrote: post #168
JumpCrisscross wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> When did they ban cash? We monitor large cash transactions, and don’t let randos print. We also restrict who can facilitate transmitting it and under what rules. We further made securities fraud, wire fraud and money laundering illegal, a trifecta of crimes most people working in crypto facilitate.

What I notice: We guarantee a monopoly for visa and mastercard, ensure that transactions cost 3-4% for everyone, and make sure that money requires days to move between accounts. The state of transaction processing in this country is hot garbage. I'm not claiming that crypto is the answer, but I sure as hell don't think our society has arrived at any sort of best solution. I'm personally fine with a lot more "crime" (…

There are instant transactions without fees in Europe. No VISA / Mastercard needed.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swish_(payment)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blik

Re: The entire crypto ecosystem is a ponzi

#175

Post by __jem »

everfree wrote: post #171
__jem wrote: post #169

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just because I can't walk into Google headquarters and demand a dividend doesn't mean that I don't still own some portion of those profits. Yes, finance is complicated, but there's no corporate board on this planet that would accept indefinite stockpiling of cash, which is why buybacks happen, including for Google!

> Just because I can't walk into Google headquarters and demand a dividend doesn't mean that I don't still own some portion of those profits. "Own" in what sense? You can't request them, you can't even vote for them to be spent in a certain way, and there's no guarantee that they'll be paid to you. Someone once said this about NFTs but it also applies to the idea of Google stock as "ownership of profits" - it's like…

Board members have a fiduciary responsibility -- there is legal recourse here by minority shareholders even if that's not "realistic" for your average shareholder.

Re: The entire crypto ecosystem is a ponzi

#176

Post by lamontcg »

everfree wrote: post #161
lamontcg wrote: post #138

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Most tech stocks fit the definition better. The fact that the stock market has almost forgotten about dividends and bubble mechanics have taken over the tech sector isn't a real counter example. That is also bad.

If that is also bad, then why don't we see more news pieces about how tech stocks are a ponzi?

Because the editors of rags like businessinsider hold considerable amounts of tech stocks in their portfolios, as do their readers. And actual businesses with cash flows are obviously not pure Ponzis and some of them will undoubtably be actually successful. The ones where people are investing in the stock, without any dividends, on the hope of growth, selling to the next highest bidder, hoping that the economy doesn't hit a sharp recession and a crash is very Ponzi-like. Early buyers do well, late buyers lose it all, none of the cash from the business ultimately leaves to the stockholders through dividends.

And I'm just responding to the parent post who defended crypto by claiming tech stocks looked like more of a Ponzi than crypto. If you can see the bubble/ponzi-like behavior in the stock market, that isn't a defense of crypto (if you can't see the similarities in behavior between either of them, then I can't help you at all).

Re: The entire crypto ecosystem is a ponzi

#177

Post by bb88 »

mrkeen wrote: post #145
rosnd wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Did you reply to the wrong comment? > Obvious enough to anyone who actually understands how bitcoin, or eth work, it does not fit the definition of a ponzi scheme. This is indeed obvious to anyone who knows what both of those things are. He very clearly explained where they got it wrong.

Maybe the post was edited? I don't see the clear explanation. Here's an exercise, I'll replace a bunch of words with their opposites, and present it as my counter argument: "This is a great argument, and not clickbait. Obvious enough to anyone who actually understands how bitcoin, or eth work, it fits the definition of a ponzi scheme." Are you convinced? Do you know where you got it wrong?

This is brilliant.

Re: The entire crypto ecosystem is a ponzi

#178

Post by jrm4 »

Axien wrote: post #14
jrm4 wrote: post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This. Today's stock market bears little relation to "a thing where you can buy shares of a company, and if it does well you can get paid by selling it."

That is simply not true at all. Most stock prices are based upon earning or future potential earnings.

That's what it says in the textbook, but you are woefully misinformed if you believe that this strongly matches reality, especially for individuals and smaller players in this thing.

Re: The entire crypto ecosystem is a ponzi

#179

Post by jrm4 »

the_mitsuhiko wrote: post #5
jrm4 wrote: post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This. Today's stock market bears little relation to "a thing where you can buy shares of a company, and if it does well you can get paid by selling it."

And yet there is a legal definition of a Ponzi scheme.

Lol. I'm a lawyer. If I went around correcting people because they weren't using the legal definition of things, I'd have no time to do anything else.

(I will go ham on you if you try to say a smart contract is a contract :)

Re: The entire crypto ecosystem is a ponzi

#180

Post by danaris »

TrianguloY wrote: post #135
jeremyjh wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It isn't money. Money can be easily exchanged for goods and services. It is a digital "asset" whose only meaningful application is speculative trading...of itself. If something only has value because you think you can sell it to the next sucker for more, it is a ponzi scheme.

> If something only has value because you think you can sell it to the next sucker for more, it is a ponzi scheme. Careful with that sentence. It is applicable to paintings, stamps, and collecting in general. True that on those other cases you have a physical object, so it has a value (as opposed to nft) but usually it's far less. A Pokemon card costs almost nothing, but some people are willing to pay millions for it…

Paintings are nice to look at.

Stamps and other collections are fun to collect and to have, regardless of their monetary value. (After all, people collect otherwise-worthless things like bottle caps, too.)

Cryptocurrencies have no substance to them, they are not interesting to look at, and while I suppose one could get a thrill out of simply knowing one has them, I very much doubt that there's more than a tiny handful of people for whom that would remain true if they were worth $0.

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