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Habits of Highly Overrated People (2013)

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Re: Habits of Highly Overrated People (2013)

#141

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To the contrary, I think paulcole made a great point. It doesn’t need to be weapons. A programmer who makes a social media feed more addictive isn’t necessarily moral. But a salesperson/marketer can promote something generally seen as good, or at least far more good than the example programmer. Ad campaigns can remind people to vote, encourage people to quit smoking, or convince people to avoid drunken driving. A mar…

No it's not a great point. It's a point made to distract from the real issue. It's a debate tactic. If you read the conversation carefully I'm trying to discuss the fundamental nature of the professions, not the specific products they are building or selling. That was something paulcole brought up. The fundamental nature of sales and marketing is manipulating people for personal gain. You could be selling hugs or wha…

It sounds like this is a difference in personal values. You can certainly assess the morality of one’s work based on its methods, but it’s also valid to assess the morality based on outcomes.

On outcomes: You framed building things and creating new things as inherently good, but entire fields of the philosophy of science question whether technological progress is inherently good. Is AI-generated art necessarily good if it causes artists to lose jobs? Are ad trackers necessarily good if it increases engagement at the loss of privacy? Are hackers/crackers seen as more noble than salespeople, as they create new exploits that make hospitals pay ransom, and expose people’s information? If a new chemical weapon or bioweapon is created, are its developers inherently noble for creating something new? Even Einstein expressed deep regret for his role in developing the atomic bomb (and Feynman went into a depression) after its usage.

On methods: most methods start as morally neutral. A person training to be a soldier may or may not end up doing immoral things, depending on what they do in their career. Research scientists may or may not do moral things (though nowadays most abide by research ethics, in the past and likely the present, many studies have caused far more suffering than their benefits). Lawyers can go on to defend fundamental rights, or end up filing frivolous lawsuits or chasing ambulances. Developers can create something genuinely useful, or cause people to lose jobs or get killed due to bugs.

To be charitable to your point: yes, I intuitively have a deep sense of respect for the discipline required to become a good software developer and create something new. But it’s completely separate from a moral respect and moral judgement: I have to know what that developer is actually creating, and how that will impact real people.

Re: Habits of Highly Overrated People (2013)

#142

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Understanding politics that way is common and understandable. It's also an unfortunate cultural construction of the term, because this understanding is deeply incorrect. Politics is what happens when people disagree about what should be done, or how it should be done. That's it. That's what politics is. There are principled and corrupt reasons for disagreement. There are forthright and deceptive/manipulative means of…

Good faith disagreements are not politics, they're negotiation. Politics is when one person/group tries to sabotage/undermine another person/group out of self-interest, even though it harms the project and reduces value. Their self-interest becomes their top goal. My personal take is that there are two extremes of culture. One is dedicated to engineering and management excellence. Everyone contributes. Even if there'…

Negotiation is a form of politics, not a separate thing from politics. Good faith negotiation is a principled and often relatively productive form of politics, but it remains politics nonetheless.

> out of self-interest

It's important to note that politics is as frequently driven by values as interests. This is true both in the office and in nation-states. And given that differing values often produce differing visions of excellence, a commitment to excellence doesn't spare people from the efforts/rigors of politics.

Re: Habits of Highly Overrated People (2013)

#143
post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The breakthroughs were done by his employees not Musk or do you praise Pope Julius II. for the Sistine chapel ceiling? BTW were is the breakthrough in Teslas?

> BTW were is the breakthrough in Teslas You're either uninformed or being pointedly obtuse. Tesla has a massive patent portfolio -- starting with the roadster's gearless transmission. It's a point of fact that building a massive car company within a crystallized industry was a breakthrough in its own right.

> starting with the roadster's gearless transmission.

This is a great example of "Habits of Highly Overrated People".

The Tesla company started in 2003, but Elon Musk started in 2004 after the three founders looked for money. Later, Elon Musk sued Eberhard (the actual founder) to have the right to call himself a co-founder.

IE: Elon Musk, in reality with respect to the Roadster, hits #3, #4, #5, and #7 from the listed blogpost.

------

Elon's primary contribution was money. The actual founders of Tesla were Eberhard and Tarpenning, and those two seemed to be the technical leaders/brains behind the operations.

Now that we're 10+ years after their departure, Tesla can't make a Cybertruck in a reasonable timeframe. Instead, they get beaten to market by Ford, Rivian, and more.

Re: Habits of Highly Overrated People (2013)

#144

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No it's not a great point. It's a point made to distract from the real issue. It's a debate tactic. If you read the conversation carefully I'm trying to discuss the fundamental nature of the professions, not the specific products they are building or selling. That was something paulcole brought up. The fundamental nature of sales and marketing is manipulating people for personal gain. You could be selling hugs or wha…

It sounds like this is a difference in personal values. You can certainly assess the morality of one’s work based on its methods, but it’s also valid to assess the morality based on outcomes. On outcomes: You framed building things and creating new things as inherently good, but entire fields of the philosophy of science question whether technological progress is inherently good. Is AI-generated art necessarily good…

You can use the utilitarian argument to justify anything. According to your logic hugging people isn't good or bad because technically you can hug someone to death. Engineering is a form of human expression and human expression is generally good, even if it can be used for evil.

A sick society corrupts good things and incentivizes bad things. Yeah sure, a sales person can sell hugs and use their money to donate to charity but that doesn't change the fact that their job exists because our society creates perverse incentives and I definitely judge people who are naturally drawn to these positions.

Most people would be happy if sales people were no longer needed in society. They are a necessary evil.

I think the soldier comparison is interesting. At least with soldiers there is plausible deniability because being a soldier doesn't automatically mean murder. It's not like soldiers have a daily murder quota. However, the same isn't true for sales. Sales people have sales quotas. Their entire job is shoving products down peoples throats.

Re: Habits of Highly Overrated People (2013)

#145
Having managed several teams in big corporate environments, I have to agree that the squeaky wheels are the ones to watch out for.

I learnt this because early on, during performance reviews, I had a sixth sense that I was shafting the quiet ones so I put together a performance metric system based on impact of work. What I found was that the quiet ones were more productive and caused the least negative impact compared to the self-aggrandizing ones. I shared this system with everyone on the team with their own data and slowly the squeaky ones started to transfer out while the team continued to improve productivity and quality because the quiet ones were happier.

Re: Habits of Highly Overrated People (2013)

#146
post #135
post #127

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Patents != Breakthroughs

Gigapress? Seems pretty revolutionary for car making but what do I know.

If they would have invented aluminum die casting then yes, but they didn't.

They built a bigger maschine, impressive but not revolutionary.

Re: Habits of Highly Overrated People (2013)

#148
post #132

This article makes an interesting point but IMO it highlights 2 phenomema, not 1. The first phenomenon is that some people seem to be more talented and useful than they are while they are present within the organization. The second phenomenon is that when people leave an organization, their talents may be immediately discarded; they often end up being used as a scapegoats for any problem which remaining employees may…

Perhaps a side note - but I know a case where someone whose code had a lot of bugs and design problems but when they were with the company they worked very hard and would address problems - often with band-aid solutions but at least they took care of their own messes so it didn't fall onto others. All of this hard work and long hours and diligence made them seem to management as if they were amazing. However after th…

Great observation. I think this is often the case with overrated developers. The fact that they churn out a lot of lines of code can make them seem highly productive.

Re: Habits of Highly Overrated People (2013)

#149
post #23
post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I get the strong impression that you‘ve never led a multi-billion dollar organization. Don’t show me the random code you built that makes a users like history load 500 milliseconds faster, talk to me about how to make the product better/more engaging/monetized!

> Don’t show me the random code you built that makes a users like history load 500 milliseconds faster, talk to me about how to make the product better/more engaging/monetized! Honestly, if I were the CEO, I would ask for the former if I were looking for the good programmers to keep since these are the things that make the technological base of the company run. The answer is of course likely different if I were looki…

I mean, again, $44bn is on the line here and 'well functioning app' is not why things are worth that much (what share of YC's value is Hacker News for example?).

Companies release financial statements for a reason.

Re: Habits of Highly Overrated People (2013)

#150

Having managed several teams in big corporate environments, I have to agree that the squeaky wheels are the ones to watch out for. I learnt this because early on, during performance reviews, I had a sixth sense that I was shafting the quiet ones so I put together a performance metric system based on impact of work. What I found was that the quiet ones were more productive and caused the least negative impact compared…

Bless you, good sir.
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