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CATL's Sodium-Ion Battery

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Re: CATL's Sodium-Ion Battery

#81

Post by jetanoia »

tromp wrote: post #17
throwawaymaths wrote: post #4

Sodium ion is a better fit for houses and grid storage than vehicles or consumer electronics.

Given that sodium ion is claimed to - charge twice as fast as lithium ion - have double the number of charge cycles - cost substantially less - be substantially safer - and more environmentally friendly I think it would be the clear preference for all but the highest performance vehicles. Note that Tesla is also trying to reduce cost in moving to 4680 cells [1]: > the main reason Tesla is using 4680 batteries at the…

Those 5 advantages are very important, but you haven’t mentioned its disadvantages which render the advantages less dramatic.

A significant disadvantage is the lower energy density of the sodium battery chemistry. Implications include faster discharge/lower range if the physical dimensions are the same as a lithium battery, or if optimized for more range/power, then it would be a larger and heavier pack vs lithium with the costs that entails.

This lower energy density is one of the main reasons it has been considered more suited to stationary application because the extra space and weight is less problematic than in a mobile applicaiton

Re: CATL's Sodium-Ion Battery

#82

Post by akira2501 »

tuatoru wrote: post #64
akira2501 wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Obsession? The higher the speed the greater the capacity of the road, and when freight has to travel 2000 miles by road, the 10mph/h difference makes a considerable impact on the time. Isn't it the case that Germany completely removes speed limits for some portions of it's "Autobahns?" What "obsession" drives that decision? There's this assumption that all the negative qualities of road are down to malignable user be…

> The higher the speed the greater the capacity of the road This is false[1]. Stopping distance increases as the square of speed, and therefore safe following distance also. This and other effects mean that 80 mph is well down on 30 mph. Theoretically capacity should be independent of speed[2], but in practise it seems to decrease at high speeds because most drivers are careful. 1. Plot of safe capacity vs speed: htt…

The first plot is of a study particular to specific roads and their current configuration in Bangkok.

The second arrives at an equality that I don't fully understand, but applying it's formula shows about a 2.6x greater spacing requirement when moving from 30mph (8.5 ft) to 80mph (22.8 ft). Which is close to what the two second rule would tell you when going from 30mph (88 ft) to 80mph (234 ft).

Interestingly, if you look at actual braking distances, then for 30mph (45 ft) to 80mph (320 ft) shows a 7x change in distances. So, the above advice relies on the fact there will be no fixed obstructions in the road and that anything in front of you will have to brake as hard as you do.

Perhaps this is why pedestrians still do so poorly on the roads, but it also makes me suspicious that you can just apply this formula equally to 30mph traffic and 80mph traffic. The hazards are different, the road duty cycle is different, traffic controls exist on one and barely on the other.

Even so.. using the basic 2.6x capacity reduction factor going from 30mph to 80mph, you're getting a 2.6x capacity increase from the change in speed. As soon as you add _one_ additional lane, the 80mph road makes a bunch of sense.

Re: CATL's Sodium-Ion Battery

#84

Post by fbdab103 »

ace2358 wrote: post #78
fbdab103 wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I do not care for their promo graphics of 10kwh sitting exposed alongside the exterior wall. Were I in a position to be constructing a battery backup, it is going to get its own dedicated concrete shed, separated as far as possible from the house.

Curious, do you store your care very far away from your house too? I agree with the danger of lithium batteries, I wouldn’t want it attached to my house either!

Ha, well GM did inform Bolt owners to stop parking next to the house, so maybe there is something to that logic.

Concentrated energy by any other name is a bomb. At least with gasoline, I am fairly confident if/when/where an ignition occurs. With an electronic device with embedded firmwares, I just have to hope that the failsafes are operating.

Re: CATL's Sodium-Ion Battery

#85

Post by theteapot »

simonebrunozzi wrote: post #59
jimnotgym wrote: post #26

The weekly HN 'new battery chemistry will solve all worlds problems' story. I will believe it when I see it

It would have been nice if you did read the article before commenting. You might be right about HN and battery articles, most of the time, but in this case it's quite a credible technology and manufacturer.

It really does read like a paid fluff piece for CATL. I have a hard time believing that's not the case TBH.

> It seems like CATL has made a near-perfect EV battery. So should Tesla be worried? ...

Not sure how 160Wh/kg equates to perfection.

Re: CATL's Sodium-Ion Battery

#86

Post by manholio »

hokkos wrote: post #70
Tade0 wrote: post #32

I've been following the developments around this chemistry since the time Tiamat announced their sodium-ion battery and it appears that in this case it's not all sunshine and rainbows: https://www.bloomberg.com/opinion/articles/2022-11-06/catl-s...

Another opinion on the difficulties of Na-ion here : https://www.linkedin.com/posts/alexandergirau_are-investors-...

This reads like pure hype from an obscure battery startup pushing their own exotic Sodium-Potassium solution, that sounds no furter then TRL3.

Re: CATL's Sodium-Ion Battery

#87

Post by account-5 »

fbdab103 wrote: post #84
ace2358 wrote: post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Curious, do you store your care very far away from your house too? I agree with the danger of lithium batteries, I wouldn’t want it attached to my house either!

Ha, well GM did inform Bolt owners to stop parking next to the house, so maybe there is something to that logic. Concentrated energy by any other name is a bomb. At least with gasoline, I am fairly confident if/when/where an ignition occurs. With an electronic device with embedded firmwares, I just have to hope that the failsafes are operating.

For the uninitiated, what are the risks with these batteries? Are they likely to explode?

Re: CATL's Sodium-Ion Battery

#88

Post by ummonk »

Reliance in India is planning on manufacturing sodium ion batteries as well, and purchased Faradion - a startup that was designing sodium ion batteries, for this purpose.

Re: CATL's Sodium-Ion Battery

#89

Post by CyanLite4 »

account-5 wrote: post #87
fbdab103 wrote: post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ha, well GM did inform Bolt owners to stop parking next to the house, so maybe there is something to that logic. Concentrated energy by any other name is a bomb. At least with gasoline, I am fairly confident if/when/where an ignition occurs. With an electronic device with embedded firmwares, I just have to hope that the failsafes are operating.

For the uninitiated, what are the risks with these batteries? Are they likely to explode?

Sodium ion is much safer. Electrolytes in it may still be flammable, but CATL says there should be no thermal runaway or spontaneous combustion like Lithium-Ion. They’re also safer to ship without the hazmat warnings in the packaging.

Re: CATL's Sodium-Ion Battery

#90

Post by CyanLite4 »

metadat wrote: post #6
CyanLite2 wrote: post #5

Same article from Dec of 2020. Lots of promises, but no tangible product.

Can you provide a link to corroborate this is the typical [sad] battery vaporware? I'm searching but haven't yet found the goods.

https://community.bluettipower.com/t/bluetti-new-battery-sod...
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