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CATL's Sodium-Ion Battery

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Re: CATL's Sodium-Ion Battery

#71

Post by _ea1k »

quonn wrote: post #18
tromp wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Given that sodium ion is claimed to - charge twice as fast as lithium ion - have double the number of charge cycles - cost substantially less - be substantially safer - and more environmentally friendly I think it would be the clear preference for all but the highest performance vehicles. Note that Tesla is also trying to reduce cost in moving to 4680 cells [1]: > the main reason Tesla is using 4680 batteries at the…

Comparing to LFP the advantages are not that big. It might be cheaper and scale better. Charging speed is now mostly limited by public charger speed and good enough. I expect sodium batteries to have a big impact in cars that cost 25k or less.

> Charging speed is now mostly limited by public charger speed and good enough.

Not sure where this is the case. Here, the 250kw chargers are plentiful, but cars average closer to 120kw because of the charge curve. We're still battery limited most of the time.

Re: CATL's Sodium-Ion Battery

#72

Post by _ea1k »

adrian_b wrote: post #52
guerby wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

5 kWh LFP battery with BMS and user serviçable rack format from a reputable brand in the USA is $1,649.99 so $330/kWh, see here for example: https://www.currentconnected.com/product/sk48v100/ You can easily find other brands for less than $300/kWh, and plenty of review/teardowns on youtube. Edit: adding "Typical capacity at 80% DOD @.5C Rate is over 7000 Cycles" so if you bring your battery to 7000 80% cycles at 0.5C…

Yes, that is a good price, but AFAIK all the US prices are quoted without taxes, to make them seem smaller, unlike in most other countries, so with taxes included I assume that the real price is about $400/kWh, which matches the price that I have found meanwhile for a similar battery in UK. Therefore, the current price for Na-ion batteries is only 3 times less than LFP (the endurance and lifetime are claimed to be ab…

Taxes in the US are not hidden, so usually they aren't as high as in the UK. They are seldom higher than 10%, so still well under $400/kwh.

Re: CATL's Sodium-Ion Battery

#73

Post by rkangel »

jimnotgym wrote: post #26

The weekly HN 'new battery chemistry will solve all worlds problems' story. I will believe it when I see it

While it's not actually in customers hands, there are two things that make this story different from most:

* This isn't a research lab announcing, or even an R&D department. This is a large, respected battery manufacturer announcing an imminent mainstream product

* The date for being in customers hands is 2023. This isn't the usual "we just need to work out how to manufacture it and then maybe in 10 years". Next year means "we have this production process worked out and are ramping up as we speak".

Re: CATL's Sodium-Ion Battery

#74

Post by rkangel »

This checklist is the normal sense check on battery announcements. Unless it fails on the last point, AFAIK it passes the test:

[ ] it is impractical to manufacture at scale.

[ ] it will be too expensive for users.

[ ] it suffers from too few recharge cycles.

[ ] it is incapable of delivering current at sufficient levels.

[ ] it lacks thermal stability at low or high temperatures.

[ ] it lacks the energy density to make it sufficiently portable.

[ ] it has too short of a lifetime.

[ ] its charge rate is too slow.

[ ] its materials are too toxic.

[ ] it is too likely to catch fire or explode.

[ ] it is too minimal of a step forward for anybody to care.

[ ] this was already done 20 years ago and didn't work then.

[ ] by this time it ships li-ion advances will match it.

[ ] your claims are lies.

Re: CATL's Sodium-Ion Battery

#77

Post by jillesvangurp »

jimnotgym wrote: post #26

The weekly HN 'new battery chemistry will solve all worlds problems' story. I will believe it when I see it

This would be one you can see, buy (from the largest battery manufacturer in the world), and generally be all over of pretty soon. Catl took one of the battery chemistries that you've been reading about and are casually dismissing and made it work.

It's a bit of a meme on HN that things aren't real or worth talking about until it solves all your imaginary problems is being mass produced, etc. Of course this is a website run by Y combinator with a diverse audience of technologists, startup people, investors, and generally people interested in learning about new things that might be disruptive, revolutionary, etc. Yes, there are a lot of new battery chemistries. And quite a few of them look like they might eventually make a big difference with some further investments. And most of those are highly of interest to both VCs that are investing in these things and, people involved with other startups in the same space, or people like me that like the idea that there are people out there working on solving some of the harder challenges in this world.

Re: CATL's Sodium-Ion Battery

#78

Post by ace2358 »

fbdab103 wrote: post #68
chris222 wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can already buy these cells in home sogens starting early next year. https://www.bluettipower.com/pages/ces-2022

I do not care for their promo graphics of 10kwh sitting exposed alongside the exterior wall. Were I in a position to be constructing a battery backup, it is going to get its own dedicated concrete shed, separated as far as possible from the house.

Curious, do you store your care very far away from your house too?

I agree with the danger of lithium batteries, I wouldn’t want it attached to my house either!

Re: CATL's Sodium-Ion Battery

#79

Post by colechristensen »

jimnotgym wrote: post #26

The weekly HN 'new battery chemistry will solve all worlds problems' story. I will believe it when I see it

Context is important

> CATL recently stated that they aim to get their sodium-ion battery into production in 2023 and are already talking with manufacturers about using it in their cars. Ultimately, it seems like CATL is ready to take centre stage in the EV battery race and cause a revolution.

This is a major manufacturer claiming plans to begin production in the next year and to already be in sales talks.

This is pretty far along the “How real is it” spectrum and a major bump for sodium chemistry batteries which last i knew were more in the “lab stage with major drawbacks”

Re: CATL's Sodium-Ion Battery

#80

Post by jillesvangurp »

nharada wrote: post #13

Any battery experts have opinions on this chemistry? My understanding is that CATL is a fairly established operation and far along in development -- what are the remaining risks in using this chemistry?

CATL as the world's largest manufacturer of batteries is covering the entire battery market and different parts of the market have different requirements. It's less about risk and more about having products with different cost and features. They are diversifying their products and opening up new segments of the market.

Sodium ion batteries are interesting because they don't depend on a lot of expensive materials like Lithium and (presumably) don't require a lot of dirty and energy intensive processing. In terms of energy density they are comparable to some of the outdated lithium batteries from a few years ago (i.e. not that impressive but still capable). But in terms of cost, it probably is a massive improvement. And this looks like it should do well in cheap cars as a good enough & cheap enough battery. And of course there is a lot of demand for batteries now beyond cars or transport where energy density simply is not that relevant.

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