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Desingineer – the mythical person every startup is looking for

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Re: Desingineer – the mythical person every startup is looking for

#161

Post by ahoyhere »

sbisker wrote: post #108

About six years ago, I decided to become a "desingineer", by accident. Here's how it went down: After getting a BS and M.Eng in Computer Science, everyone was pleased as punched to let me code for them. But I wanted to code and design interfaces as well. What a strange idea - a programmer also making the interfaces. Well, it turned out no one would take me seriously unless I had designed interfaces in a professional…

Funny, I'm purely self-taught and have worked for little local cos as well as big ones such as Pepsi & Bear Stearns (as a consultant at $hundreds per hour). Never had any problems with the fact that I had zero "official" credentials whatsoever.

They all hired me for what I had already shown I could DO.

I even put on my resume "School of Hard Knocks" - back when I actually had a resume.

If I were you, I would wonder that the common thread is in your experiences.

Re: Desingineer – the mythical person every startup is looking for

#162

Post by balsam »

pg wrote: post #126

They're not entirely mythical. I was this person for Viaweb, and YC has funded several founders who are both hackers and designers.

Desingineers who are willing not to be founders could still be mythical. (And I think that's what the article was talking about)

Re: Desingineer – the mythical person every startup is looking for

#163

Post by ahoyhere »

moocow01 wrote: post #122
sbisker wrote: post #108

About six years ago, I decided to become a "desingineer", by accident. Here's how it went down: After getting a BS and M.Eng in Computer Science, everyone was pleased as punched to let me code for them. But I wanted to code and design interfaces as well. What a strange idea - a programmer also making the interfaces. Well, it turned out no one would take me seriously unless I had designed interfaces in a professional…

I think in general, being a generalist in any field puts a ceiling on your career path after a while. And like you said the ceiling is not so much about the generalist being mediocre at many things, its more about others getting confused about how you would be best moved up the career track. But the problem with the concept of a career track is that you are on a track defined by other people. I'd say the only way out…

Being a designer-coder is not being a generalist, it's being a double expert. It's like being a ninja unicorn. Everybody wants one… Chris Dixon's original tweet is right.

In my experience, a designer-coder is always in demand and can name their price.

Re: Desingineer – the mythical person every startup is looking for

#164

Post by ahoyhere »

Nat0 wrote: post #140
sbisker wrote: post #108

About six years ago, I decided to become a "desingineer", by accident. Here's how it went down: After getting a BS and M.Eng in Computer Science, everyone was pleased as punched to let me code for them. But I wanted to code and design interfaces as well. What a strange idea - a programmer also making the interfaces. Well, it turned out no one would take me seriously unless I had designed interfaces in a professional…

This sounds very similar to my experience, just starting with design first and then delving into programming to gain more control over the finished product. I knew that this would be a great combination to have considering how frequently a product breaks down in the communication between programmers and designers. However, right now I am debating which direction to go in since it has a mess trying to get anyone to ta…

If people don't take you seriously, there are only two potential things at play:

1. You don't command respect (either in posture/body language, the way you communicate, your portfolio/lack thereof, some combination of the three)

2. You are trying to work with nimrods

If you don't personally command respect, you will never get respect, no matter what you do. Unless you shore up your body language, communication style, and portfolio.

If you're trying to work with nimrods, nothing will ever please them. There's nothing worse than an ignorant client who thinks he knows what it takes.

Sometimes it's a 1-2 punch with all factors, in which case you're screwed. Better work on your clients (charge more) and work on yourself (take improv training, fix your body posture, etc.).

Re: Desingineer – the mythical person every startup is looking for

#165

Post by dm8 »

Finding designers who can do front-end stuff (CSS, HTML, jQuery/JS) itself is hard. And add the complexity of backend coding. These type of people are rare. Quora had an interesting discussion on the topic of designers implementing their own designs where lot of top guys in design have voiced their opinions - http://qr.ae/7vD

Re: Desingineer – the mythical person every startup is looking for

#166

Post by ahoyhere »

moe wrote: post #107
asolove wrote: post #9

I think the problem is not that one person can't have both of these skills, but that it is hard to play both roles on the same project unless you have a lot of discipline. The engineering mindset and the UX design mindset optimize for different things. Even if you are excellent at both, it helps to have someone else forcing you to get the UX right when you're doing the engineering work, and to make the engineering po…

but that it is hard to play both roles on the same project unless you have a lot of discipline. For me it's less of a discipline issue and more of a time issue. Both the backend and the frontend take a lot of quality time to do them right. It's simply not effective to have a single person context-switch between them, even when said person is very good at both. I.e. this is one of the situations where two people can i…

100% agreed. That's why I couldn't believe the upvote fest on the "anti-Product Guys" post a while back. When you do it all, you quickly learn that it's absolutely exhausting work.

More than just the same work 2x, but more like 3x or 4x because of holding it ALL in your head and trying to balance it.

I had the same experiences you did. So, while I'm a good back-end developer, and a great front-end developer, I've chosen to focus on design because A) I'm amazing at it -- it's my best skill, so that is the best use of my energy, B) I don't have the time or energy to do it all any more.

That said, I do still pay attention to the overall shape of the code (and my husband/biz partner pays attention to the design).

Several times, I've been able to wade into a drawn-out discussion between my biz partner and one of our freelancers, & cut thru the crap with a beautifully architected solution. Which always makes me feel warm & fuzzy. And they look at me and go "Oh yeah, you DO know what you're doing," which is worth it just for that. (Because my biz partner has this irritating tendency to tell me "that's impossible" as if he forgot that I damn well know it isn't ;)

Being entirely wrapped up in the code OR the design can be dangerous. ("That's impossible!" - ha.)

I wouldn't trade my ability to do both for anything. I'm glad my husband & I are both "desingineers," at slightly different mix percentages.

Re: Desingineer – the mythical person every startup is looking for

#167

Post by ahoyhere »

tibbon wrote: post #71

I am a designineer. The problem is that it doesn't make you an expert of all skills. Jack of all trades, master of none. While I took AP CS in high school, I can't rattle off the to O-notation of most algorithms. While I took plenty of art and design classes over the years, I'm no Jony Ives. But, its not about what I can't do in my mind, but what I can do. I learn most things very quickly. I'm decent in Ruby and can…

I think your problem is a marketing problem. I wouldn't be impressed with somebody who said "coding, marketing, product and design" -- I'd wonder why they didn't have an answer with more flair or confidence or one that said how they'd help ME.

How about this: "I'm your trench man. When it's on the line and you need a good layout for a new feature you HAVE to roll out? Me. When you have a bug and all your other developers aren't available? I can drop Photoshop and fix it. And while I do all that, I'm figuring out how to help make your app better… and get more happy customers… which helps you get more customers, period. I can help your developers and your designers make sweet, sweet product love… because I have one foot on each side of the ravine, and can bridge it with my communication skills. One stop shopping, baby."

See what I said above to others about confidence & delivery.

When you only define yourself in terms of line item features "code, design" you invite comparison based on features alone. Hence the followup questions about years of experience. You're making yourself the crappy subnotebook with the bulleted list, and the MacBook Airs are beating the pants off you. :)

Re: Desingineer – the mythical person every startup is looking for

#168

Post by ahoyhere »

danielmason wrote: post #81
tibbon wrote: post #71

I am a designineer. The problem is that it doesn't make you an expert of all skills. Jack of all trades, master of none. While I took AP CS in high school, I can't rattle off the to O-notation of most algorithms. While I took plenty of art and design classes over the years, I'm no Jony Ives. But, its not about what I can't do in my mind, but what I can do. I learn most things very quickly. I'm decent in Ruby and can…

I suspect the scarcity of your skillset is the main contributor to your relative scarcity of opportunities. At a previous company I helped found, we realized that we were trying to find people who were pretty good designers, front-end developers, and really good on the phone with clients for support stuff. We didn't have the margins to split these into different roles, and that was the insight that allowed me to real…

So maybe you're left with a handful of startups who are able to find a place for you because they recognize your value and adapt, not because they had planned on finding you in the first place.

If you are waiting for somebody else to figure out your worth, you're trying to make them do your job, and it's not gonna work.

You have to tell them -- or better yet show them what your value is.

That's the only way to sell products, or sell yourself. The people in the seat on the other side of the desk see a lot of candidates. They don't have time to fully investigate every one. They trust that if a person doesn't have the confidence or self-knowledge to sell himself, or herself, that it's not worth their time to dig deep and find it.

I say this as a person who's kicked ass at job interviews, gotten every job I ever applied for -- 3/5 of which were not open positions, but made for me by my request -- and also done quite a bit of hiring.

Re: Desingineer – the mythical person every startup is looking for

#169

Post by ahoyhere »

The HN comments have way more substance than the original post. But I'll echo others: it doesn't take a genius to be both. On the other hand, a skill for spotting and studying and applying underlying patterns is a must.

There are just as many patterns and underlying systems in design as codecraft, and vice versa. And they're not that dissimilar.

Design isn't "art" -- it's a type of making things fit for purpose. You can have purely functional design that meets the purpose without soul. You can have purely functional code that meets the purpose without soul.

The best design is crafted with soul. But so is the best code.

As somebody who does both, I speak from experience - they're just not that different. Superficially yes, but not at heart.

Re: Desingineer – the mythical person every startup is looking for

#170

Post by ahoyhere »

kenamarit wrote: post #114
asolove wrote: post #9

I think the problem is not that one person can't have both of these skills, but that it is hard to play both roles on the same project unless you have a lot of discipline. The engineering mindset and the UX design mindset optimize for different things. Even if you are excellent at both, it helps to have someone else forcing you to get the UX right when you're doing the engineering work, and to make the engineering po…

Agreed. It's hard to switch gears from being head deep in back end code to thinking about and approaching a problem in terms of design. Maybe if you can spend one day coding and the next designing... Unless I'm working for myself I find I rarely have this freedom. This is why I left my last startup. If I'm trying to do both there are too many things that I'm accountable for on a daily basis to the boss, who in my exp…

Definitely the best way is to not work in little nibbles but long stretches, like a day or two on each. Otherwise you're going to drive yourself insane! (As you've learned.)
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