Arch Linux turns 20: Small, simple, great documentation • Hacker News Board

Re: Arch Linux turns 20: Small, simple, great documentation

#131

Post by coletonodonnell » Thu, Nov 24, 2022, 9:37 PM UTC

dvratil wrote: post #72

What I miss mentioned here is AUR and the fact that almost any software that you can think of is packaged there. You read about some cool software (like git-bug I learned about today here on HN), you do `yay -S cool-software` and it's there. On Ubuntu or Debian? Not so much...

The AUR is the main thing I miss after moving from Arch to Gentoo, the scope of the applications on the AUR is crazy, and for the most part in my experience it's usually up to date and reliable. In my opinion, the AUR alone is enough reason to install Arch or an Arch-Based Distro.

Re: Arch Linux turns 20: Small, simple, great documentation

#132

Post by OrderlyTiamat » Thu, Nov 24, 2022, 10:15 PM UTC

MegaDeKay wrote: post #64

bradrn wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’ve heard of Manjaro, but on the occasions when I’ve brought it up in conversation, people have almost unanimously warned me off from it in fairly strong terms… not entirely sure why, but that alone makes me reluctant to use it.

Manjaro is like Arch but not exactly like Arch. If you have a problem with Manjaro and then go to the (stellar) Arch documentation to try to figure out why it doesn't work in a case like this, that documentation won't help you.

I mean that's not true: I daily drive ubuntu and the arch wiki has been very kind to me. But to slightly rework you point, if you're a manjaro user expecting the arch wiki to apply 1:1 to your system, you're mistaken and are in for a bad time.

Re: Arch Linux turns 20: Small, simple, great documentation

#133

Post by morbusfonticuli » Thu, Nov 24, 2022, 10:45 PM UTC

I've been using Debian Testing on my personal Notebooks since ~10yrs: throughout university, and the subsequent work life.

During that time, I oftened wondered whether I should "play"/experiment more with other distros; after all I loved tinkering with my vim config and network setups etc.

However, I've been just satisfied with the status quo, and more importantly: I just wanted to get shit done.

Apt, dpkg, systemd. If I want to get bleeding-edge SW I'll build the upstream source manually. No big deal - won't happen too often.

Getting older, I'm beginning to despise fixing the os more and more ... I just want the machine to work. This results perhaps from my day job, which involves openbsd-developing/tweaking ... And general a lot of cursing.

Granted: I'm not a gamer or graphics-enthusiast, and use my computer primarily for development, writing, watching movies/pictures ... Your typical senior resident trapped in the body of a 30ish guy.

I'm often wondering whether I'm just lazy and/or whether my attitude is the norm or rather the exception respective to Unix/Linux (power)users.

Edit: forgot to say "big thank you" to the arch community! Over the years I consulted the archwiki endless times! Almost everytime really helpful (in contrast to the debian wiki, lol)

Re: Arch Linux turns 20: Small, simple, great documentation

#134

Post by bradrn » Thu, Nov 24, 2022, 11:15 PM UTC

realgeniushere wrote: post #124

bradrn wrote: post #19

> The installation process, and the documentation behind it, lead to the third virtue: a complete installation tends to be very small and simple, because you only install the bits you need. If you don't know what bits you need, the documentation will help you to work it out, and the result is something that is both fairly minimal and that, with luck, you understand. You know what's in there because you installed it.…

This is a false sense of understanding that many Linux users develop. You basically built a puzzle by putting together the pieces that fit together. And you have the illusion that you learned something about the picture drawn on the pieces. You don’t really understand anything more except how to configure a system with a poorly designed configuration system. Installing a difficult-to-use Linux distribution teaches yo…

I think it’s a continuum. Sure, I freely admit that I’m still rather ignorant when it comes to the low-level details of my computer. But compared to the understanding I get from Windows or Ubuntu? From that point of view, I’ve learnt a lot.

Besides, it’s not like this knowledge is useless. I now find myself being able to diagnose and fix problems with my system which previously I was clueless about. And it makes it a lot easier for me to learn the lower-level details if I so choose.

Re: Arch Linux turns 20: Small, simple, great documentation

#135

Post by tcrenshaw » Thu, Nov 24, 2022, 11:57 PM UTC

morbusfonticuli wrote: post #133

I've been using Debian Testing on my personal Notebooks since ~10yrs: throughout university, and the subsequent work life. During that time, I oftened wondered whether I should "play"/experiment more with other distros; after all I loved tinkering with my vim config and network setups etc. However, I've been just satisfied with the status quo, and more importantly: I just wanted to get shit done. Apt, dpkg, systemd.…

I consider myself a Linux power user at this point; been running Linux as my primary os since 2007. I enjoy tinkering, but I like my distro to be rock solid; all of my Linux servers run debian stable. In no way would I say that you're "lazy", you just know what you're looking for in a daily driver. Debian is a fantastic choice and I used it as my primary OS for years.

That being said, I do run Arch on my laptop and desktop these days; I like being a little closer to upstream. I don't run a ton of bleeding edge software, but using aur makes it incredibly easy to stay up to date. I am also extremely appreciative of the Arch wiki, no matter what distro I'm using it's one of the first places I check out if I'm having an issue.

Re: Arch Linux turns 20: Small, simple, great documentation

#136

Post by grandiego » Fri, Nov 25, 2022, 12:07 AM UTC

realgeniushere wrote: post #124

bradrn wrote: post #19

> The installation process, and the documentation behind it, lead to the third virtue: a complete installation tends to be very small and simple, because you only install the bits you need. If you don't know what bits you need, the documentation will help you to work it out, and the result is something that is both fairly minimal and that, with luck, you understand. You know what's in there because you installed it.…

This is a false sense of understanding that many Linux users develop. You basically built a puzzle by putting together the pieces that fit together. And you have the illusion that you learned something about the picture drawn on the pieces. You don’t really understand anything more except how to configure a system with a poorly designed configuration system. Installing a difficult-to-use Linux distribution teaches yo…

IMHO in most cases the "sense of understanding" comes from all the related materials which you read when installing a "difficult" system: it is difficult not because inherent complexity but for lacking abstracting tools (like GUI wizards) which forces the user to learn more in order to understand the "limited" provided interface. I remember my first (Softlanding?) Linux installs (by mid nineties) reading about hard disk geometry, the mandatory kernel recompilation for the network card drivers, the soft links when upgrading shared libraries, the monitor frequencies for X11, and a big etc. which previously (with DOS/Win 3.x) never had to deal with.

Re: Arch Linux turns 20: Small, simple, great documentation

#137

Post by 4oo4 » Fri, Nov 25, 2022, 12:59 AM UTC

I bought a Librem laptop and was trying to install Debian on it, only to find that there was a firmware bug that prevented me from using the installer. So instead, I read the Arch wiki and installed Debian Arch-style using the live ISO and debootstrap, and I've been installing Debian that way ever since. I've never used Arch because I like everything as boring as possible, but someday I might take the plunge. They're the first place I go for docs, regardless of what distro I'm using, except for maybe Alpine when I have to read docs on something strange like OpenRC, and have to go to Gentoo's wiki for that.

The thing that makes the Arch docs so great is that it covers edge cases and has lots of examples.

Re: Arch Linux turns 20: Small, simple, great documentation

#138

Post by OrderlyTiamat » Fri, Nov 25, 2022, 2:25 AM UTC

belval wrote: post #127

subsection1h wrote: post #121

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> the AUR is awesome and has everything you'll ever need But what if I need packages created and maintained by vetted, qualified devs rather than the unvetted randos that upload PGBUILDs to the AUR? Many of the AUR contributors I've looked into have no publicly-accessible real names, no personal websites, no LinkedIn accounts, and their GitHub accounts are only a couple years old with Japanese cartoon characters as t…

> But what if I need packages created and maintained by vetted, qualified devs rather than the unvetted randos that upload PGBUILDs to the AUR? Pay for them or package them yourself. The nerve of being angry at people giving you their work for free and having the *audacity* of thinking you should have access to their real name, personal websites, LinkedIn and GitHub account. The level of entitlement dripping from you…

Wow. You are being very hostile, and make no mistake, that is on you, not on their comment. They made a point on trust which is very valid: just because someone generously does work doesn't mean you should automatically trust them for it if you know nothing about them.

You reading entitlement there and responding so hostile is on you.

Re: Arch Linux turns 20: Small, simple, great documentation

#139

Post by joveian » Fri, Nov 25, 2022, 3:08 AM UTC

subsection1h wrote: post #121

dartharva wrote: post #100

Arch is awesome and was the distro that finally got me to stop sticking to Windows. Every other distro I tried had some flaw that kept on making its experience subpar, and I have tried a lot of distros - Ubuntu, Mint, Debian, Manjaro, Fedora, and a few more. I was staying away from Arch for its reportedly complex installation. But this month I decided to take the bullet and, to my surprise, got a fast and flawless sy…

> the AUR is awesome and has everything you'll ever need But what if I need packages created and maintained by vetted, qualified devs rather than the unvetted randos that upload PGBUILDs to the AUR? Many of the AUR contributors I've looked into have no publicly-accessible real names, no personal websites, no LinkedIn accounts, and their GitHub accounts are only a couple years old with Japanese cartoon characters as t…

I wouldn't auto update from AUR but you can easily download a snapshot of the PKGBUILD of particular software you want from the Arch website and verify that it isn't doing anything questionable (and fix it if it is) then build it yourself. It is a simple format and easy to review, it is rare to see patches or non-obvious build steps. Personally, I have a dedicated aur user with some aliases that grab a URL from a fifo and print it, download, and extract. There are also often packages that pull the latest version from git and can be easily updated to use release branches if you want. Because of the focus on upstreaming fixes rather than keeping patches you can also just build outside the package system and install to /usr/local and you will still benefit from the project likely having received patches to build on Arch (if they don't test it themselves). Even if not yet fixed upstream, any random issue you encounter usually already has a bug filed by an Arch user unless you are extremely quick about updating.

Re: Arch Linux turns 20: Small, simple, great documentation

#140

Post by joveian » Fri, Nov 25, 2022, 3:15 AM UTC

dartharva wrote: post #125

subsection1h wrote: post #121

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> the AUR is awesome and has everything you'll ever need But what if I need packages created and maintained by vetted, qualified devs rather than the unvetted randos that upload PGBUILDs to the AUR? Many of the AUR contributors I've looked into have no publicly-accessible real names, no personal websites, no LinkedIn accounts, and their GitHub accounts are only a couple years old with Japanese cartoon characters as t…

How exactly does any other distro solve that? Please don't tell me you genuinely find PPAs to be a better alternative...

If the PPA is run by the project then you don't need to trust someone else. Sometimes AUR packages are created by a developer for the project but since you aren't trusting a particular URL that is run by the project it is possible that that will change later without you noticing if you are auto updating from AUR.