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UK households set for largest fall in living standards in six decades

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Re: UK households set for largest fall in living standards in six decades

#51

Post by Moissanite »

hnhg wrote: post #22
cloutchaser wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is such a simplified viewpoint. The UK has never been able to collect more than 39%-40% of GDP in taxes. And that's what the level is at now. Already everyone is paying as much tax as in history. (and the "rich" pay a lot of that, remember you pay £0 tax under £15,000 income per year). You can try and tax more, but it's highly unlikely to work based on past experience. And in these cases, like with corporation t…

You should say high income earners rather than "the rich" here, to be perfectly accurate. The two are not always the same.

Very important for people to understand this. For high earners (100-200k), marginal tax rates can already pass 60%. That is an income which is locally considered very high but compared to our Atlantic cousins is somewhat more normal.

I will be thousands of pounds worse off per year under the new tax plans, but I'm OK with that because I understand that it is necessary. However, we are rapidly approaching most people's tolerance limit in this regard; unless the next government does a very good job of tackling economic injustice it feels like people will just give up - at which point the only way is down.

Now, what "give up" really looks like is key - I feel like widespread civil unrest is far closer than most people realize, but before that there will be a further decline in social cohesion. Right now it feels like this story is being masked by the Ukraine situation.

Re: UK households set for largest fall in living standards in six decades

#52

Post by nathanaldensr »

rsj_hn wrote: post #26

This is 100% caused by the anti-Russian sanctions policy, yet not a single comment on this thread so far has even mentioned the sanctions and tried to engage in a reasoned debate about whether the economic costs paid by Europe (and especially the energy insecure nations within the EU) were worth whatever moral good boy points the sanctions buy us. Some have suggested the sanctions help Ukraine, but haven't articulate…

You're noticing the depth of the indoctrination and just how little people actually think for themselves. Even thinking about an unpopular explanation is enough to cause intense cognitive dissonance.

Re: UK households set for largest fall in living standards in six decades

#53

Post by drozycki »

rsj_hn wrote: post #26

This is 100% caused by the anti-Russian sanctions policy, yet not a single comment on this thread so far has even mentioned the sanctions and tried to engage in a reasoned debate about whether the economic costs paid by Europe (and especially the energy insecure nations within the EU) were worth whatever moral good boy points the sanctions buy us. Some have suggested the sanctions help Ukraine, but haven't articulate…

> yet not a single comment on this thread so far

There were only three top-level comments when you posted this. You could have opened this discussion calmly, but you came in running with resentment towards the community. Why did you choose to do that?

Re: UK households set for largest fall in living standards in six decades

#54

Post by pydry »

kypro wrote: post #30

I'll get downvoted for this, but this isn't true if you're one of the two protected classes in the UK: pensioners or welfare recipients. Both will see their income rise with inflation. If you're working then, sure, you're getting screwed as always because after just spending billions locking down the economy to saving boomers from Covid, this year we decided to spend billions bailing out boomers pensions, paying for…

>the two protected classes in the UK: pensioners or welfare recipients.

Landowners and shareholders are the two protected classes.

Pensioners are more protected but they are likely to lose triple lock at some point. Dividend taxes will NEVER be as high as income tax.

Re: UK households set for largest fall in living standards in six decades

#55

Post by mensetmanusman »

rsj_hn wrote: post #26

This is 100% caused by the anti-Russian sanctions policy, yet not a single comment on this thread so far has even mentioned the sanctions and tried to engage in a reasoned debate about whether the economic costs paid by Europe (and especially the energy insecure nations within the EU) were worth whatever moral good boy points the sanctions buy us. Some have suggested the sanctions help Ukraine, but haven't articulate…

The ~100,000 Russian families who just had their son thrown into a meat grinder aren’t laughing.

War is hell.

People have been warning for years that Russia would continue attacking neighboring countries every other year or so, since it has been going on for years.

Can’t blame the world for finally starting to fight back.

If the UK government had war gamed this scenario, they would have realized many preparatory actions that could have been taken to protect their economy.

Re: UK households set for largest fall in living standards in six decades

#56

Post by zpeti »

rsj_hn wrote: post #26

This is 100% caused by the anti-Russian sanctions policy, yet not a single comment on this thread so far has even mentioned the sanctions and tried to engage in a reasoned debate about whether the economic costs paid by Europe (and especially the energy insecure nations within the EU) were worth whatever moral good boy points the sanctions buy us. Some have suggested the sanctions help Ukraine, but haven't articulate…

I just can't help but think there's some truth in the conspiracy theory I read on twitter from Kim Dotcom... this Ukraine war is an awfully convenient way for the US to completely decouple and destroy Europe and Russia. Which is a massive win for... the US. Who definitely didn't do much to PREVENT this war at any point.

I don't think this was necessarily 100% intentional, but it definitely seems like an energy independent, moderately industrial, innovative USA is THE biggest beneficiary of this war on the relative scale.

Re: UK households set for largest fall in living standards in six decades

#57

Post by Moissanite »

Glawen wrote: post #18
cloutchaser wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is such a simplified viewpoint. The UK has never been able to collect more than 39%-40% of GDP in taxes. And that's what the level is at now. Already everyone is paying as much tax as in history. (and the "rich" pay a lot of that, remember you pay £0 tax under £15,000 income per year). You can try and tax more, but it's highly unlikely to work based on past experience. And in these cases, like with corporation t…

Remember that everyone is paying VAT, so yes little income are also taxed

I feel like we need a progressive VAT, which differentiates necessities from luxuries. Probably too complex to implement though.

Re: UK households set for largest fall in living standards in six decades

#58

Post by sgt101 »

jimnotgym wrote: post #42
cloutchaser wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Very nice, but the EU is probably going to decline in GDP more than the UK, and the euro could potentially collapse due to the Italy situation in the next few years. Thinking the UKs issues are because of brexit are about as simplistic as saying “tax the rich will solve all the worlds issues”

>the EU is probably going to decline in GDP more than the UK Even if that does happen, it doesn't necessarily follow that the UK couldn't also have a higher GDP by trading with the EU >Thinking the UKs issues are because of brexit ... could make you the governor of the Bank of England https://www.theguardian.com/business/2022/nov/16/brexit-and-...

It doesn't follow, but history post 2016 wasn't written in gold if the UK had stayed in. The north of England, the central belt of Scotland and the south of Wales were in a terrible state. Brexit has failed to help, but remaining almost certainly wouldn't have either. The biggest issue the UK has experienced since leaving is Covid-19. Remaining wouldn't have helped us in that contingency.

The UK has blamed Europe for it's ills for 40 years. Remainers/rejoiners are still centered on this - we have to start to look to ourselves. Being in or out of Europe is not at issue; working to build a sustainable national economy and polity is.

Re: UK households set for largest fall in living standards in six decades

#59

Post by timeon »

tannhaeuser wrote: post #43
kypro wrote: post #30

I'll get downvoted for this, but this isn't true if you're one of the two protected classes in the UK: pensioners or welfare recipients. Both will see their income rise with inflation. If you're working then, sure, you're getting screwed as always because after just spending billions locking down the economy to saving boomers from Covid, this year we decided to spend billions bailing out boomers pensions, paying for…

German government just started UBI basically; in other words, they're buying their votes. Not getting your boomer hate, though.

Yes hate is not appropriate but still there seems to be issue: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZuXzvjBYW8A

Re: UK households set for largest fall in living standards in six decades

#60

Post by samwillis »

Justsignedup wrote: post #7
BoGoToTo wrote: post #5

Don't worry, the Tories will just cut taxes on the rich again and that will fix everything /s

Hey man, if people would stop buying their mocha lattes, internet, phones, computers, and netflix, they could save so much money that they could upgrade their carboard box in the park to a carboard box mansion! /s

You've not gone far enough, they need to give up the Avocado on toast for any chance of that happing. /s

In all seriousness though, I think the current generation of 20-30 yo are increasingly giving up on any plan to buy a house, ever. They are making the decision that even with sacrifices it's unattainable, and so they just want to enjoy themselves. And eat the avocado on toast.

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