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‘Some things never leave you’: Poverty’s indelible marks

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Re: ‘Some things never leave you’: Poverty’s indelible marks

#141

Post by king-geedorah »

p0pcult wrote: post #135
Aunche wrote: post #127

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's easier to make economic theories that fit science fiction rather than real life. The Vimes boots problem has already been solved by financing. Services like Affirm would allow Sam Vimes to pay the $50 boots in 4 biweekly installments of $12.50. If the theory were correct, then buy-now-pay-later programs would help alleviate poverty, but what we see instead is that it worsens it by enabling consumerist purchases.

Who qualifies for zero interest financing?

Exactly, the interest rate on affirm is pretty high starting at 10%

Re: ‘Some things never leave you’: Poverty’s indelible marks

#142

Post by [deleted] »

Aunche wrote: post #127
CobaltFire wrote: post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

See “The Sam Vimes “Boots” Theory of Socioeconomic Unfairness”: The reason that the rich were so rich, Vimes reasoned, was because they managed to spend less money. Take boots, for example. He earned thirty-eight dollars a month plus allowances. A really good pair of leather boots cost fifty dollars. But an affordable pair of boots, which were sort of OK for a season or two and then leaked like hell when the cardboar…

It's easier to make economic theories that fit science fiction rather than real life. The Vimes boots problem has already been solved by financing. Services like Affirm would allow Sam Vimes to pay the $50 boots in 4 biweekly installments of $12.50. If the theory were correct, then buy-now-pay-later programs would help alleviate poverty, but what we see instead is that it worsens it by enabling consumerist purchases.

[deleted]

Re: ‘Some things never leave you’: Poverty’s indelible marks

#143

Post by anonymouskimmer »

josephcsible wrote: post #128
jl6 wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ironic that hire-purchase / instalment plans are designed to solve this problem but end up making it worse because they're usually only available at predatory rates, due to the huge risk of default. Lenders and borrowers alike can’t rely on the borrower having a source of income at all. For most people on a low income, it could be better to be on an even lower income if in exchange that income could be made more reli…

> they're usually only available at predatory rates, due to the huge risk of default. This seems contradictory: if rates are sky-high, but they need to be that high to avoid the lenders losing money due to the huge risk of default, then they're not predatory.

Predatory on those who pay, not predatory on those who default. What's predatory on those who default is the pay-to-play system of credit bureaus.

Credit makes the modern economy run, but it churns out winners and losers. And some types of credit have more winners or more losers. At what point should society start banning such credit? Just once it crosses over into loan-sharking? Once it results in a net decrease of GDP? Have such analyses been done?

Re: ‘Some things never leave you’: Poverty’s indelible marks

#144

Post by 1attice »

Eleison23 wrote: post #88
1attice wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What's important in understanding falsehoods like the above post is the work they do. It's patently clear to any of us who have experienced poverty that Eleison23 hasn't actually looked into any of this. Ignore that part for now, and instead ask: Why does he need to believe & say these things? What fear does this false view assuage? What feelings, what thoughts, are throttled? It's really hard being alive during a co…

Well, you know, I've been homeless and poor. I've spent most of my adult life unemployed. I lost everything I owned. I had to learn adulting under duress. Many poor people don't know (or they fear) basic things like how to prepare meals, wash clothes, pay bills, clean the house. Many people choose the freedom of homelessness over the burdens of operating a household. SNAP is a supplement, of course, and totally unnec…

Well, I've been homeless and poor as well, and I've spent significant chunks of time down. I too have had the experience you describe, of losing everything owned.

Then, I got a job at a big tech company and got to see how the other half lived.

I had a very different experience than you describe, and I think that your definitions of poverty are still doing work for you -- perhaps different work than I suspected, at first, but you are still rationalizing the horror.

There are many degrees of poverty -- by minimizing all but the most abject cases, you're moving the goalposts.

I also strongly suspect you're still in your twenties, but that's another matter.

Re: ‘Some things never leave you’: Poverty’s indelible marks

#145

Post by azalemeth »

I was brought up primarily by a single parent on state benefits and her mother. At times, with both my parents unemployed and one of them not around much, I recall getting things like a pen for Christmas -- to be used at school in a few weeks time -- and being such a regular at the library that all the staff knew me by name. The first birthday party I had was when I was 21, on a relatively generous scholarship at Oxford. Meeting other students made me painting aware that many of their private schools had better facilities than the county where I grew up, and their parents didn't have long and painful arguments about shopping. This article, although American, really resonated more than I thought it would initially -- my mum was on benefits and we just made it through, a situation I think is rather rare in the states.

I'm now much older, and my partner's family are lovely but, to my mind, rich. She spends so much money on frivolities that I continually have to bite my tongue and accept this is normal. Going shopping is a totally different experience with any of them. I love them all dearly and give my mother money per month to live on, but this feeling that I shouldn't spend money on myself, should be sure to always maximize value per unit in the strictest possible sense (including longevity) and repair rather than replace things lives on. I often wear clothes until they break, and then continue to wear them until they become literally unusable. My partner has two double wardrobes filled with clothes and many shoes and handbags.

It's a very different path through the world.

Re: ‘Some things never leave you’: Poverty’s indelible marks

#146

Post by eimrine »

pflenker wrote: post #12

One of the things that suck most about being poor is that you need to have money in order to save money. You need to have enough money to buy a certain level of quality, and if you don't have it, you're forced to buy cheap stuff that breaks more easily (thus spending more money in total). I found this aspect hard to understand for others, the attitude often seems to be: "you don't have to be poor, you simply need to…

> One of the things that suck most about being poor is that you need to have money in order to save money.

> This is true if you are free to choose to buy a new shirt now or save a bit and buy it later. But if you are running out of shirts now, you don't have that choice.

Do you have any better example? Shirts can be bought used. I do not consider myself as being in poverty but often I use to buy something used, especially if I know how to fix what is broken.

Re: ‘Some things never leave you’: Poverty’s indelible marks

#147

Post by anonymouskimmer »

bparsons wrote: post #27
pflenker wrote: post #12

One of the things that suck most about being poor is that you need to have money in order to save money. You need to have enough money to buy a certain level of quality, and if you don't have it, you're forced to buy cheap stuff that breaks more easily (thus spending more money in total). I found this aspect hard to understand for others, the attitude often seems to be: "you don't have to be poor, you simply need to…

Being poor is really expensive. This is something rich and middle upper class people never can really grasp. The cost of credit, unstable housing situations, having a car that breaks down all the time etc. all conspires to keep you poor. As the OP points out, when you are below the threshold needed for "basics", the interest on your debt is always higher than any return on any hypothetical investment you might make w…

"the interest on your debt is always higher than any return on any hypothetical investment you might make with savings (which you can never justify allocating)."

This wouldn't necessarily be the case if poor people had access to 401(k)s with matching contributions. But even when they do have "access" to investment accounts it's really rare to have matching contributions of any kind.

And yeah, even if they had it they still couldn't necessarily afford to pay into it.

When I finally had excess income I got a guaranteed ~10% rate of return by paying off my credit card debt. And that's what I did instead of investing. (That, and buying a new mattress.)

Re: ‘Some things never leave you’: Poverty’s indelible marks

#148

Post by ianai »

pflenker wrote: post #12

One of the things that suck most about being poor is that you need to have money in order to save money. You need to have enough money to buy a certain level of quality, and if you don't have it, you're forced to buy cheap stuff that breaks more easily (thus spending more money in total). I found this aspect hard to understand for others, the attitude often seems to be: "you don't have to be poor, you simply need to…

“A warm man can never understand a cold man.” From “one day in the life of Ivan D.”

Telling poor people to simply make better choices is downright shameful. Close though is the “effective altruism” crap when it goes so far that even holocausts can be excused. We should be trying to make the current moment sustainable and better for all. Aim for giving people enough stability to actually make decent decisions before worrying about petty things and far off futures.

Re: ‘Some things never leave you’: Poverty’s indelible marks

#149

Post by Aunche »

p0pcult wrote: post #135
Aunche wrote: post #127

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's easier to make economic theories that fit science fiction rather than real life. The Vimes boots problem has already been solved by financing. Services like Affirm would allow Sam Vimes to pay the $50 boots in 4 biweekly installments of $12.50. If the theory were correct, then buy-now-pay-later programs would help alleviate poverty, but what we see instead is that it worsens it by enabling consumerist purchases.

Who qualifies for zero interest financing?

Buy-now-pay-later unicorns are funded by VC funny money. They care more about growth than actually trying to turn a profit. You can get approved even with zero credit history.

Re: ‘Some things never leave you’: Poverty’s indelible marks

#150

Post by josephcsible »

notRobot wrote: post #134
josephcsible wrote: post #126

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The point is that even the cheapest restaurants are more expensive than preparing food yourself.

Do you actually believe poor people don't know that?

Your comment made it sound like you didn't know that.
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