‘Some things never leave you’: Poverty’s indelible marks • Hacker News Board

Re: ‘Some things never leave you’: Poverty’s indelible marks

#61

Post by PopAlongKid » Thu, Nov 24, 2022, 5:12 PM UTC

m348e912 wrote: post #35

photochemsyn wrote: post #2

The architects of the economic system in the United States don't want to eliminate poverty - it's kept around as a threat, something to point to - see, grunts, that's where you'll end up if you're not an obedient drone. This is also a main reason why there's no reliable public health care system, instead it's tied to employment. The general concept is "discipline of the labor force."

One thing that confuses me is that people talk about lack of healthcare for the poor like Medicaid is not a thing. I have a friend getting a hip replacement in three weeks, after getting an appt with a specialist in one week, and it's getting covered under Medicaid. Will she have co-pays and out of pocket costs? I don't know. But I can't imagine it will be worse than with the shitty insurance I have.

And also Affordable Care Act (U.S.) which is not tied to employment. It's been around for over 10 years.

Re: ‘Some things never leave you’: Poverty’s indelible marks

#62

Post by dionidium » Thu, Nov 24, 2022, 5:12 PM UTC

monero-xmr wrote: post #36

hilom wrote: post #3

That was a long read, but very much worth reading. This part really stuck out to me: > A few years ago, a friend of mine, in a well-meaning attempt to understand the impoverished diets of poor people, ate a Food Stamp diet for a week. On the last day of the diet, he talked about what he had learned and spoke philosophically about his renewed appreciation of healthy food as he prepared to end his restricted diet with…

Is that a historical thing? In the US you get a SNAP card and can buy fresh produce at the store. I shop at a low-income focused grocery store (because it’s the same stuff but cheaper) and most people are using SNAP benefits and carts are always a mix of healthy stuff to unhealthy frozen junk.

You're going to get pushback on this commonsense understanding of the world, but I've been on food stamps and of course you're right. "It's more complicated than that." No it isn't. Poor people shop at the same stores as everybody else. The food is all there. "They don't know the difference between healthy and unhealthy meals." How stupid do you think poor people are? They know how to prepare a healthy meal. The notion that this is just completely beyond the abilities of poor folks is risible. "They don't have as much time to prepare meals." Yes, they do. They have time to prepare a meal. Of course they do. Maybe not every single night, but they can make it work. (In fact, in the United States upper-income earners work more hours than those at the bottom [0].)

It's just an endless array of easily-overcome excuses (mostly from people who have never been poor and don't actually know any poor people).

[0] https://www.weforum.org/agenda/2022/09/working-hours-america...

Re: ‘Some things never leave you’: Poverty’s indelible marks

#63

Post by [deleted] » Thu, Nov 24, 2022, 5:13 PM UTC

synu wrote: post #5

I wish there were more founders and investors who came from a background of intense poverty. I know why there aren’t many, and I know why the ones who are don’t speak about it, but because nobody talks about it everyone has to figure out how to “pass” and how not to fall into certain traps on our own, and there isn’t any systemic support out there. Or if there is/there are people talking about it, I’m just not aware.

[deleted]

Re: ‘Some things never leave you’: Poverty’s indelible marks

#64

Post by unethical_ban » Thu, Nov 24, 2022, 5:14 PM UTC

notRobot wrote: post #57

bluedino wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> For example, things like getting a dog, signing up for cable TV, getting an unnecessarily expensive new phone, spending money on going out to eat, etc. In a way, people without a lot of money need to "learn how to be poor" When you're low on money, you eat sandwiches and ramen and beans and potatoes. You don't eat McDonald's or get Starbucks.

Ah yes. "If only these people would abstain from the joys of eating fucking McDonald's , they'd no longer be poor."

A double quarter pounder meal is $11 with tax in Texas.

I'm not poor but I'm realizing just how insane it is to eat out regularly now.

Re: ‘Some things never leave you’: Poverty’s indelible marks

#65

Post by EliRivers » Thu, Nov 24, 2022, 5:14 PM UTC

bluedino wrote: post #54

troupe wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is a similar situation with buying a car for $500 that will require lots of repairs vs. a more expensive car that will give you a lower cost per mile. While this does add some drag, in most of the situations I've actually seen, it isn't the main barrier to getting out of poverty. The main barrier seems to be a culture or mindset that prioritizes short term benefit/feelings over long term benefits even when there a…

> For example, things like getting a dog, signing up for cable TV, getting an unnecessarily expensive new phone, spending money on going out to eat, etc. In a way, people without a lot of money need to "learn how to be poor" When you're low on money, you eat sandwiches and ramen and beans and potatoes. You don't eat McDonald's or get Starbucks.

Life with no money and the perpetual fear of being evicted and living in a car with your children until they're taken away, or being fired for taking a day off sick because you work a bad job with no protections, or not being able to pay the electric and making a game of huddling together with your children at night for fear that they'll freeze, this is being poor. Learn to live poor? Learn to live this life? People do, and it's horrible, and life with nothing to ever look forwards to is a long slow suicide.

A McDonald's for some of these people IS life. It's the point of being alive, now that they have so little. It's the special treat that they've worked hard for, and it's pretty much the lowest tier special treat.

Re: ‘Some things never leave you’: Poverty’s indelible marks

#66

Post by bluedino » Thu, Nov 24, 2022, 5:15 PM UTC

notRobot wrote: post #57

bluedino wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> For example, things like getting a dog, signing up for cable TV, getting an unnecessarily expensive new phone, spending money on going out to eat, etc. In a way, people without a lot of money need to "learn how to be poor" When you're low on money, you eat sandwiches and ramen and beans and potatoes. You don't eat McDonald's or get Starbucks.

Ah yes. "If only these people would abstain from the joys of eating fucking McDonald's , they'd no longer be poor."

I'd first like to respond that McDonalds is terrible and don't see how it brings you joy.

I'm also not saying poor people do t get any joy. They just don't get to have every joy they want. Even if you're not poor you don't get to do that.

At what point do you see the irresponsibility? Applebees? Ruth's Chris? The French Laundry?

Re: ‘Some things never leave you’: Poverty’s indelible marks

#67

Post by lcuff » Thu, Nov 24, 2022, 5:16 PM UTC

A really good book I read was "Bridges out of Poverty", aimed at social workers etc, but very informative to the lay reader. One of the several things I learned: If a poor person 'comes in' to some money, they are likely to give a decent portion away, because other people know about it and hit them up ("I need glasses and you just got some money"), and in order to be helped themselves by their community when they are in need down the road, they need to be responsive when they have 'extra'.

A poverty mentality is about 'today'. Food, rent, clothes. So education and planning for the future get pushed down in the stack of what's important.

Also had interesting stuff about humor among the impoverished, the middle class and the rich.

A personal observation: The poor in my community don't know how to 'work' the system. There are free (used) computers available to school kids, but the parents don't make use of them. Super-low cost internet access is available, but I saw one family succumb to an 'up-sell' to TV and Cable access, which they couldn't afford (oh yeah, installation cost too, we didn't remember to tell you about that) and in the end, default on the payment, which disqualified them from the low-cost program for a year. Living with three families/12 people in a two bedroom apartment means the child qualifies for benefits for the homeless, but no-one knows, the benefits don't get used.

Re: ‘Some things never leave you’: Poverty’s indelible marks

#68

Post by mistermann » Thu, Nov 24, 2022, 5:18 PM UTC

Aunche wrote: post #47

mistermann wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Arguably, if our culture didn't offload essentially all responsibility for running society off to "democracy" (a magical term that no one really considers the precise, real world manifestation of...another cultural norm/shortcoming, that is strongly culturally enforced , often using conveniently existent memes/psychological-exploits) people may be more interested in problems and insist that they are addressed one way…

Civics and government ought to be mandatory subjects in American schools. In school, we learn about the Civil Rights protests, and we learn about laws that made in response to these protests. What's completely neglected is are the lobbying and legislative process that lead to the creation of these laws. Nowadays, lobbying is a dirty word which for the average person means literal political bribery, which only leads t…

There is a massive and extremely wide variety of things that occur that people either do not know of, or have an incorrect understanding of (which they do not realize).

I wonder if holding conversations haphazardly across various social media platforms with essentially zero coordination or teaching/enforcement of skilful thinking and speech is an optimal way to run a planet. I've never encountered it in a corporation (at least not to the same degree), which suggests that it is not optimal.

Oh well, I guess we will never know!

Re: ‘Some things never leave you’: Poverty’s indelible marks

#69

Post by bluedino » Thu, Nov 24, 2022, 5:19 PM UTC

unethical_ban wrote: post #64

notRobot wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ah yes. "If only these people would abstain from the joys of eating fucking McDonald's , they'd no longer be poor."

A double quarter pounder meal is $11 with tax in Texas. I'm not poor but I'm realizing just how insane it is to eat out regularly now.

I remember working retail years ago, and having co-workers that would get fast food for lunch. They're spending 3 hours (after-tax) of of their minimum wage pay on lunch. How much sense does that make?

Re: ‘Some things never leave you’: Poverty’s indelible marks

#70

Post by woodruffw » Thu, Nov 24, 2022, 5:24 PM UTC

It’s a bummer to see many people on here not respond to the two phenomena that the author explicitly identifies: fear and shame.

Nothing good comes from shaming struggling people for making short-term financial decisions. It only breeds more shame, makes people afraid to express their needs, and pushes the poor even further out of the public’s eye.