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‘Some things never leave you’: Poverty’s indelible marks

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Re: ‘Some things never leave you’: Poverty’s indelible marks

#41

Post by monero-xmr »

fbdab103 wrote: post #38
monero-xmr wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is that a historical thing? In the US you get a SNAP card and can buy fresh produce at the store. I shop at a low-income focused grocery store (because it’s the same stuff but cheaper) and most people are using SNAP benefits and carts are always a mix of healthy stuff to unhealthy frozen junk.

When you are poor, you have to be frugal in all things. Even "free money" needs to be spent judiciously. Junk foods will extend your dollar further and are typically faster to prepare than alternatives.

Hmm… junk food is generally more expensive than rice, beans, canned veggies, frozen veggies. Look at the prices for a bag of chips and it’s pretty expensive.

Re: ‘Some things never leave you’: Poverty’s indelible marks

#42

Post by troupe »

pflenker wrote: post #12

One of the things that suck most about being poor is that you need to have money in order to save money. You need to have enough money to buy a certain level of quality, and if you don't have it, you're forced to buy cheap stuff that breaks more easily (thus spending more money in total). I found this aspect hard to understand for others, the attitude often seems to be: "you don't have to be poor, you simply need to…

It is a similar situation with buying a car for $500 that will require lots of repairs vs. a more expensive car that will give you a lower cost per mile.

While this does add some drag, in most of the situations I've actually seen, it isn't the main barrier to getting out of poverty. The main barrier seems to be a culture or mindset that prioritizes short term benefit/feelings over long term benefits even when there are other options. For example, things like getting a dog, signing up for cable TV, getting an unnecessarily expensive new phone, spending money on going out to eat, etc.

For many people in poverty, their experiences make these decisions feel very rational so it is hard to think any differently.

Re: ‘Some things never leave you’: Poverty’s indelible marks

#43

Post by bluedino »

monero-xmr wrote: post #36
hilom wrote: post #3

That was a long read, but very much worth reading. This part really stuck out to me: > A few years ago, a friend of mine, in a well-meaning attempt to understand the impoverished diets of poor people, ate a Food Stamp diet for a week. On the last day of the diet, he talked about what he had learned and spoke philosophically about his renewed appreciation of healthy food as he prepared to end his restricted diet with…

Is that a historical thing? In the US you get a SNAP card and can buy fresh produce at the store. I shop at a low-income focused grocery store (because it’s the same stuff but cheaper) and most people are using SNAP benefits and carts are always a mix of healthy stuff to unhealthy frozen junk.

The excuse for this is they either don't know how to cook, or don't have the staples to cook, or they don't have the time to cook.

Re: ‘Some things never leave you’: Poverty’s indelible marks

#44

Post by monero-xmr »

bluedino wrote: post #43
monero-xmr wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is that a historical thing? In the US you get a SNAP card and can buy fresh produce at the store. I shop at a low-income focused grocery store (because it’s the same stuff but cheaper) and most people are using SNAP benefits and carts are always a mix of healthy stuff to unhealthy frozen junk.

The excuse for this is they either don't know how to cook, or don't have the staples to cook, or they don't have the time to cook.

It’s hard for me to feel bad when everything possible is in front of you and you still make a poor life decision. You can be poor and still be willfully unhealthy, same as the rich.

Re: ‘Some things never leave you’: Poverty’s indelible marks

#46

Post by troupe »

monero-xmr wrote: post #41
fbdab103 wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When you are poor, you have to be frugal in all things. Even "free money" needs to be spent judiciously. Junk foods will extend your dollar further and are typically faster to prepare than alternatives.

Hmm… junk food is generally more expensive than rice, beans, canned veggies, frozen veggies. Look at the prices for a bag of chips and it’s pretty expensive.

I sat down with someone who said their family was starving because they couldn't get enough food from their snap benefits. We went through how much they had and put together a healthy basic menu (rice, beans, etc.) that would make sure no one was starving and they still had about 50% left over to use for buying whatever nice to haves they wanted. I suggested the look for items that were on sale to add to their basic menu. We had even factored in buying pots and pans.

They looked at what we had put together and said, "My kids won't eat that."

While they definitely had financial difficulties to overcome, it wasn't a lack of resources that was their biggest barrier.

Re: ‘Some things never leave you’: Poverty’s indelible marks

#47

Post by Aunche »

mistermann wrote: post #9
photochemsyn wrote: post #2

The architects of the economic system in the United States don't want to eliminate poverty - it's kept around as a threat, something to point to - see, grunts, that's where you'll end up if you're not an obedient drone. This is also a main reason why there's no reliable public health care system, instead it's tied to employment. The general concept is "discipline of the labor force."

Arguably, if our culture didn't offload essentially all responsibility for running society off to "democracy" (a magical term that no one really considers the precise, real world manifestation of...another cultural norm/shortcoming, that is strongly culturally enforced , often using conveniently existent memes/psychological-exploits) people may be more interested in problems and insist that they are addressed one way…

Civics and government ought to be mandatory subjects in American schools. In school, we learn about the Civil Rights protests, and we learn about laws that made in response to these protests. What's completely neglected is are the lobbying and legislative process that lead to the creation of these laws. Nowadays, lobbying is a dirty word which for the average person means literal political bribery, which only leads to more political apathy.

Re: ‘Some things never leave you’: Poverty’s indelible marks

#48

Post by bluedino »

The holidays are always a good time to reflect on this. My father is one of ten children. They all grew up in a 900sq ft house. Most of them dropped out of high school, none of them went to college.

Now that they are all grown up (the youngest is 48?) it's interesting to see how they all ended up.

Some worked a factory job for years, and ended up with a nice house, retirement, etc. some worked the exact same job and are still paycheck to paycheck.

None of them were really skilled workers, professionals, etc. My one aunt has never had much more than a minimum wage job, had five children with three different fathers, and she's probably in the worst position of them all. She's been given cars etc by the others but always screws up. Her children (and grandchildren) have carried on the tradition.

Looking in from the outside, it seems like the big factors are your work ethic, who your friends are, and what you with your spare time.

My dad has a great work ethic but he's an example of work smarter not harder.

You seem to be an average of your friends, and my aunt for example, hangs out with some real winners.

Spare time is related to your friends a bit, but spending all of your time and money at the casino doesn't get you anywhere, and neither does hanging out drinking until 2am.

Re: ‘Some things never leave you’: Poverty’s indelible marks

#49

Post by troupe »

Eleison23 wrote: post #11
photochemsyn wrote: post #2

The architects of the economic system in the United States don't want to eliminate poverty - it's kept around as a threat, something to point to - see, grunts, that's where you'll end up if you're not an obedient drone. This is also a main reason why there's no reliable public health care system, instead it's tied to employment. The general concept is "discipline of the labor force."

Poverty is hard to come by in these United States. If you're starving, or homeless, or unemployed, you've worked yourself into a corner fairly diligently. There are myriad social safety nets out there for people if they'd only take advantage of them. Yet there are people roaming the streets and picking out of trash cans. Why? Because they've lost their families, they've lost their minds, they struggle with addictions…

Was talking with a homeless guy yesterday. He has been given free housing multiple times, but he always leaves and goes back to living on the streets. He isn't kicked out, he just leaves. He is a very nice guy, but isn't looking for housing. Is he poor? Yes, but, as you say, there are safety net programs out there for him if he wants them.

Our town has clothes available for people who need it and (in some circumstances) housing. When people go to clean out the houses afterwards they find lots of dirty clothing. Instead of washing the clothes (in a machine or by hand), they go back and get more clothes.

On one hand we could say they should know better, but really they probably don't. All of us have blind spots and people in poverty in the US typically have lots of blind spots about how they could live differently.

Re: ‘Some things never leave you’: Poverty’s indelible marks

#50

Post by tjpnz »

synu wrote: post #5

I wish there were more founders and investors who came from a background of intense poverty. I know why there aren’t many, and I know why the ones who are don’t speak about it, but because nobody talks about it everyone has to figure out how to “pass” and how not to fall into certain traps on our own, and there isn’t any systemic support out there. Or if there is/there are people talking about it, I’m just not aware.

What I do find strange is how much systemic support already exists for other marginalised groups in society. But given how pervasive the idea of a meritocracy is in capitalist societies I've wondered whether extending that support would mean confronting some uncomfortable truths.

Regardless of that there are benefits to be had here. Very few products (especially tech products) are targeted exclusively towards people from wealthy backgrounds.

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