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‘Some things never leave you’: Poverty’s indelible marks

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Re: ‘Some things never leave you’: Poverty’s indelible marks

#21

Post by roflyear »

finnh wrote: post #8
rcarr wrote: post #6

This passage: > In his week of eating like poor people, he had missed two crucial ingredients: fear and shame. While he was looking forward to breaking his fast that night, poor people don’t get to do that. They don’t get to look forward to the end of impoverishment, to a good meal. My friend would eat a healthy meal that night, and he had known throughout the week that he could stop whenever he wanted, that all he h…

William Shatner (!) covered that song well IMO: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=ainyK6fXku0 'cause everybody hates a tourist

Yeah he actually did a good job here

Re: ‘Some things never leave you’: Poverty’s indelible marks

#22

Post by sdiacom »

sokoloff wrote: post #10
photochemsyn wrote: post #2

The architects of the economic system in the United States don't want to eliminate poverty - it's kept around as a threat, something to point to - see, grunts, that's where you'll end up if you're not an obedient drone. This is also a main reason why there's no reliable public health care system, instead it's tied to employment. The general concept is "discipline of the labor force."

I’m not convinced that healthcare is a Machiavellian planned top-down threat. The origin was in employers competing for labor during a time of wage controls. The continuation is driven more by people who have good health coverage not wanting to lose that and the fear that their doctors visits will feel like DMV visits. That’s a powerful force.

The vast majority of people who have so-called "good" health coverage in the US are paying one to three orders of magnitude more for it, compared to the price of private health insurance in countries with a public health system.

The best thing that could happen to people who currently have private health insurance and wish to keep it is that a public health system appears, forcing the private health insurance oligopoly to actually be competitive.

Re: ‘Some things never leave you’: Poverty’s indelible marks

#23

Post by stevenwoo »

mistermann wrote: post #9
photochemsyn wrote: post #2

The architects of the economic system in the United States don't want to eliminate poverty - it's kept around as a threat, something to point to - see, grunts, that's where you'll end up if you're not an obedient drone. This is also a main reason why there's no reliable public health care system, instead it's tied to employment. The general concept is "discipline of the labor force."

Arguably, if our culture didn't offload essentially all responsibility for running society off to "democracy" (a magical term that no one really considers the precise, real world manifestation of...another cultural norm/shortcoming, that is strongly culturally enforced , often using conveniently existent memes/psychological-exploits) people may be more interested in problems and insist that they are addressed one way…

Also, any of the programs addressing the issues are often associated with the catchall terms "socialism" and "communism" pejoratively.

Re: ‘Some things never leave you’: Poverty’s indelible marks

#24

Post by delecti »

sokoloff wrote: post #10
photochemsyn wrote: post #2

The architects of the economic system in the United States don't want to eliminate poverty - it's kept around as a threat, something to point to - see, grunts, that's where you'll end up if you're not an obedient drone. This is also a main reason why there's no reliable public health care system, instead it's tied to employment. The general concept is "discipline of the labor force."

I’m not convinced that healthcare is a Machiavellian planned top-down threat. The origin was in employers competing for labor during a time of wage controls. The continuation is driven more by people who have good health coverage not wanting to lose that and the fear that their doctors visits will feel like DMV visits. That’s a powerful force.

I think "doctors visits feeling like DMV trips" is a hyperbole sold to us by people who are actually trying to keep people trapped in jobs. It's not entirely false, but it's definitely vastly overblown, as seen by current emergency rooms, where you don't need insurance to get emergency care, but do often need to wait several hours, and other countries' routine medical care, where it varies too much between countries to say that waiting lists are a consequence of universal healthcare.

Re: ‘Some things never leave you’: Poverty’s indelible marks

#25

Post by teddyh »

I often link to these articles:

• 5 Things Nobody Tells You About Being Poor, May 27, 2011: https://web.archive.org/web/20221021114455/https://www.crack...

• The 5 Stupidest Habits You Develop Growing Up Poor, January 19, 2012: https://web.archive.org/web/20220607063905/https://www.crack...

• 4 Things Politicians Will Never Understand About Poor People, February 21, 2013: https://web.archive.org/web/20220904014612/https://www.crack...

Re: ‘Some things never leave you’: Poverty’s indelible marks

#26

Post by mistermann »

stevenwoo wrote: post #23
mistermann wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Arguably, if our culture didn't offload essentially all responsibility for running society off to "democracy" (a magical term that no one really considers the precise, real world manifestation of...another cultural norm/shortcoming, that is strongly culturally enforced , often using conveniently existent memes/psychological-exploits) people may be more interested in problems and insist that they are addressed one way…

Also, any of the programs addressing the issues are often associated with the catchall terms "socialism" and "communism" pejoratively.

Magical words on top of magical words, yielding a magical reality.

Strangely, it seems to be almost an unassailable phenomenon, like there is an intuition in people to defend the perspective. Granted, there is substantial propaganda in play, but one would think that at least some people would be able to transcend it.

Re: ‘Some things never leave you’: Poverty’s indelible marks

#27

Post by bparsons »

pflenker wrote: post #12

One of the things that suck most about being poor is that you need to have money in order to save money. You need to have enough money to buy a certain level of quality, and if you don't have it, you're forced to buy cheap stuff that breaks more easily (thus spending more money in total). I found this aspect hard to understand for others, the attitude often seems to be: "you don't have to be poor, you simply need to…

Being poor is really expensive. This is something rich and middle upper class people never can really grasp.

The cost of credit, unstable housing situations, having a car that breaks down all the time etc. all conspires to keep you poor. As the OP points out, when you are below the threshold needed for "basics", the interest on your debt is always higher than any return on any hypothetical investment you might make with savings (which you can never justify allocating).

American society is great at convincing people that this is their personal moral failing, rather than a system designed to keep the maximum number of people as debt slaves.

Re: ‘Some things never leave you’: Poverty’s indelible marks

#28

Post by glasss »

sokoloff wrote: post #10
photochemsyn wrote: post #2

The architects of the economic system in the United States don't want to eliminate poverty - it's kept around as a threat, something to point to - see, grunts, that's where you'll end up if you're not an obedient drone. This is also a main reason why there's no reliable public health care system, instead it's tied to employment. The general concept is "discipline of the labor force."

I’m not convinced that healthcare is a Machiavellian planned top-down threat. The origin was in employers competing for labor during a time of wage controls. The continuation is driven more by people who have good health coverage not wanting to lose that and the fear that their doctors visits will feel like DMV visits. That’s a powerful force.

Of course it's not an evil plot formed by a small conference table worth of people. However when the majority of the US recognizes flaws with our medical systems and nothing changes, it's perceived as a threat, and perception is reality.

Also, while anecdotal, I've never met anyone who is actually opposed to changing the healthcare system. I understand that the main talking point on one side is the fear of lower quality medical care, but I've honestly never seen this brought up as a genuine point. I've seen it used as a straw man because it is a weak argument though.

Re: ‘Some things never leave you’: Poverty’s indelible marks

#29

Post by sokoloff »

sdiacom wrote: post #22
sokoloff wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’m not convinced that healthcare is a Machiavellian planned top-down threat. The origin was in employers competing for labor during a time of wage controls. The continuation is driven more by people who have good health coverage not wanting to lose that and the fear that their doctors visits will feel like DMV visits. That’s a powerful force.

The vast majority of people who have so-called "good" health coverage in the US are paying one to three orders of magnitude more for it, compared to the price of private health insurance in countries with a public health system. The best thing that could happen to people who currently have private health insurance and wish to keep it is that a public health system appears, forcing the private health insurance oligopo…

> vast majority of people who have so-called "good" health coverage in the US are paying one to three orders of magnitude more for it, compared to the price of private health insurance in countries with a public health system.

I pay (employer plus employee amounts) just under $20K/year for a family of four. I doubt anyone in the “vast majority” is paying over $50K/yr. Three orders of magnitude less than that is $50/yr. How can anyone, anywhere provide meaningful private health insurance for an individual (let alone a family of four) for $50/yr?!

Re: ‘Some things never leave you’: Poverty’s indelible marks

#30

Post by phkahler »

Eleison23 wrote: post #11
photochemsyn wrote: post #2

The architects of the economic system in the United States don't want to eliminate poverty - it's kept around as a threat, something to point to - see, grunts, that's where you'll end up if you're not an obedient drone. This is also a main reason why there's no reliable public health care system, instead it's tied to employment. The general concept is "discipline of the labor force."

Poverty is hard to come by in these United States. If you're starving, or homeless, or unemployed, you've worked yourself into a corner fairly diligently. There are myriad social safety nets out there for people if they'd only take advantage of them. Yet there are people roaming the streets and picking out of trash cans. Why? Because they've lost their families, they've lost their minds, they struggle with addictions…

>> Poverty is hard to come by in these United States. If you're starving, or homeless, or unemployed, you've worked yourself into a corner fairly diligently.

You have a lot to learn. Start by reading the article, and understand that the effects of growing up that way are hard to overcome - psychologically. The author has a Ph.D and still suffers from it.

You may also want to look around at low cost of subsidized housing. It's often closer and more common than we think.

I know a person living it, and I can look at the situation and think about how I might handle things better. But that ignores a huge part of the reality of what it's like to be that person, or live that life.

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