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Arch Linux turns 20: Small, simple, great documentation

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Re: Arch Linux turns 20: Small, simple, great documentation

#51

I appreciate the straightforward install and wide availability available of packages, but in practice always using the latest packages system wide can be annoying. For example right now the latest gdb is broken on both my machines, and since i’m not as keen to participate in troubleshooting new software I think I’ll be moving to a more stable distro pretty soon https://bbs.archlinux.org/viewtopic.php?id=274056

It's possible to downgrade packages though https://wiki.archlinux.org/title/downgrading_packages

[deleted]

Re: Arch Linux turns 20: Small, simple, great documentation

#52
post #18
post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Arch is not minimal. Debian netinstall does the same. Alpine is. If you think Arch is fast, try Alpine x86. On X.Org, VESA works everywhere.

Can you elaborate? In what way is Alpine more minimal than Arch? (I really just don't know) Also are you suggesting that Debian netinstall is not minimal?

Arch is minimal in the sense that the default system consists of very little. If you install nothing but the base metapackage, you won't get a usable system out of it at all. The purpose of Arch is to fill out a complete, working system by making your own choices. If you follow the installation guide, then you start out with base, linux, and linux-firmware. Base is a metapackages that consists of archlinux-keyring, bash, bzip2, coreutils, file, filesystem, findutils, gawk, gcc-libs, gettext, glibc, grep, gzip, iproute2, iputils, licenses, pacman, pciutils, procps-ng, psmisc, sed, shadow, systemd, systemd-sysvcompat, tar, util-linux, xz.

To get a fully-working system, you'd also need a bootloader, but Arch doesn't prescribe what that has to be. Alpine is mostly going to give you these same thing in terms of available CLI utilities, but rather than being based on GNU libc and GNU coreutils, it's based on musl and busybox. The init system is OpenRC rather than systemd. And it has a default bootloader, which is syslinux.

This makes Alpine more "minimal" in the sense of a minimal installation taking up less disk space, because musl, busybox, and OpenRC are smaller in the literal sense of the binary files consume less disk space than glibc, GNU coreutils, and systemd. Busybox also comes with ash (I think actually dash) as the default shell, which smaller than bash.

I have no idea if the apk package manager is smaller than pacman. They're both smaller than what you'd get out of a Debian or Redhat descended system.

Personally, I think it's a bit misleading to call either of these more minimal than the other. The functionality, feature set, list of available utilities is pretty much the same. Alpine is just giving you smaller files, though note that using a musl-based system presents a lot of difficulty because a fair amount of software Linux users expect and are familiar with isn't really POSIX-compliant and only works with GNU C.

Re: Arch Linux turns 20: Small, simple, great documentation

#53

While some may see it as a learning tool I have used Arch on my workstations for 14 years. The last time I remember having to manually fix things was when it migrated to systemd. I am a linux sysadmin so I might be biased but I think people overestimate the effort required to get exactly what you want and nothing more out of an Arch setup.

I use it on all my personal linux boxes at home: laptop, router, nas, a nuc, a couple of rpis and a bunch of VMs. Main thing I love is that I've never found myself in the position of just giving up and starting again on any of them. I've switched a few of those over to arch when I reached that point with what I was running on them before. Most distros effectively force you to do that eventually.

I upgrade them when I get round to touching them for some reason so sometimes months will go by. I've never encountered a problem after upgrade that I couldn't quickly resolve with a brief bit of tinkering, and I'd take that over starting from scratch or leaving things mouldering away on outdated software any day.

Re: Arch Linux turns 20: Small, simple, great documentation

#54
post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm afraid simple and easy don't go well together. You either have automation to make things easy to the user, but then it's no longer simple. Or you require the user to do everything manually, but then it's no longer easy.

True. Maybe there's a viable middle ground between Ubuntu & Arch. Perhaps with a focus on the audience (e.g. a web dev distro), it becomes viable to make sensible compromises on both (easiness & simplicity) that result in a good combination for the user.

Have you looked at EndeavourOS?

Re: Arch Linux turns 20: Small, simple, great documentation

#55
post #29
post #19

> The installation process, and the documentation behind it, lead to the third virtue: a complete installation tends to be very small and simple, because you only install the bits you need. If you don't know what bits you need, the documentation will help you to work it out, and the result is something that is both fairly minimal and that, with luck, you understand. You know what's in there because you installed it.…

If we could combine Ubuntu's easiness of use with Arch's simplicity and performance, that'd be my ideal distro for work. I love Arch for its simplicity and performance. But it just wasn't productive for me to get everyday tasks done. I'm not advanced Linux user, occasionally I'd need hours to get seemingly simple stuff done. For a hobby desktop, fine. For a work tool as a developer, I moved back to Ubuntu (though I h…

Check out endeavouros. It is arch with an opinionated installer and WM/DE setup, but then you get a pretty standard arch setup and it’s great.

IMO it combines the best of both worlds.

Re: Arch Linux turns 20: Small, simple, great documentation

#56
post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can you elaborate? In what way is Alpine more minimal than Arch? (I really just don't know) Also are you suggesting that Debian netinstall is not minimal?

Arch is minimal in the sense that the default system consists of very little. If you install nothing but the base metapackage, you won't get a usable system out of it at all. The purpose of Arch is to fill out a complete, working system by making your own choices. If you follow the installation guide, then you start out with base, linux, and linux-firmware. Base is a metapackages that consists of archlinux-keyring, b…

Is apk a classic package manager in that it installs packages to the file system or does it use overlays?

The line

> Alpine Linux is designed to run from RAM

in the wiki almost makes it sound like OpenWRTs opkg where the root fs is readonly.

Re: Arch Linux turns 20: Small, simple, great documentation

#57
post #33
post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Alpine base rootfs is just a few megabytes, while Arch is like 100-200MB. I usually encounter Alpine in Docker containers when people want to wrap just one specific service and have save space on things that are not essential for it (it would be wasteful to ship your 20MB app in a 200MB Arch/Debian container). I didn't know Alpine was useful as a working machine though.

A Debian Slim Docker image is 20MiB, and in my experience by the time you install all the dependencies of your app in an Alpine image, it’s bigger than the equivalent based on Debian Slim.

> A Debian Slim Docker image is 20MiB, and in my experience by the time you install all the dependencies of your app in an Alpine image, it’s bigger than the equivalent based on Debian Slim.

This is true, also while Alpine is an excellent base image, some people have run into troubles with musl/busybox and prefer to use Debian/Ubuntu or whatever else they're familiar with as their container base.

Then again, I kind of went in the opposite direction and use Ubuntu as the base for all of my container images and install software "the normal way": for example, getting OpenJDK through apt as I would on a server with Ansible, or for my local dev machine, without any of the fanciful optimizations or clever hacks to keep the file sizes down.

The downside of this is that my base images are multiple hundreds of MB in size (even after cleaning apt cache in the same step as doing the install, to avoid adding that to the layers), but on the bright side that hardly matters because I use the same base images for all of my containers so only the changes for that particular image need to be transferred through the network and like 40-80% of the layers remain consistent: https://blog.kronis.dev/articles/using-ubuntu-as-the-base-fo...

It's not "optimal" from a size perspective, but it's delightfully simple and approachable.

Re: Arch Linux turns 20: Small, simple, great documentation

#58
I just discovered Arch Linux this year, and I’m running it on a few raspberry pis. I love getting the latest packages, and the docs are great. Arch works well for me because I like updating my homebrew Mac user land daily, and updating Arch just feels natural.

Re: Arch Linux turns 20: Small, simple, great documentation

#59
post #32

pacman corrupted my installation twice in a year. Obviously I did something wrong but who knows.

Do you mean "an update required manual intervention but I did not pay attention and as a result my system was broken later"? If not, do you have links to the bug reports?
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