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Japanese have been producing wood for 700 years without cutting down trees

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Re: Japanese have been producing wood for 700 years without cutting down trees

#161

Post by thechao »

thechao wrote: post #119
eloff wrote: post #103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A German friend phrased it this way for Americans: We have beers older than your country. The depth of history and culture in Europe never ceased to amaze me while I was travelling there, especially in Greece and Italy. I grew up on the prairies in Canada, there was pretty much nothing there 120 years ago.

The largest city in the "middle ages" was in the US. Europeans trot that "no history" story out because saying "... and then Europeans engaged in the largest genocide in human history" doesn't feel as good, I guess? There was definitely an interruption and a regime change — Europe's got a lot more of those a lot more recently than the US — but the history is there, if you care to look.

EDIT: I can’t modify this to narrow the assertion to “… the US had a city (Cahokia) larger than its European contemporaries…”

Also, all of the Americas gets historical short shrift from the old world: my point still stands: there was a concerted effort 500 years ago to exterminate the natives, and the results of that plan continues to this day when people say “X doesn’t have any history”.

Re: Japanese have been producing wood for 700 years without cutting down trees

#162

Post by tremon »

creaturemachine wrote: post #120
eloff wrote: post #103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A German friend phrased it this way for Americans: We have beers older than your country. The depth of history and culture in Europe never ceased to amaze me while I was travelling there, especially in Greece and Italy. I grew up on the prairies in Canada, there was pretty much nothing there 120 years ago.

Europeans have no awareness of aboriginal history since they simply didn't have anything like it, so of course their version of history and culture is assumed to be the standard.

Which definition of "aboriginal" are you using here? If you're simply referring to the indigenous people of Australia, it seems a tautology that they didn't exist in Europe. And if you're using aboriginal as an umbrella term for all indigenous people, it seems foolish to me to think that there never were indigenous people in Europe.

Also, you might want to look up the etymology of the word you're using: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aborigines_(mythology)

> The Aborigines in Roman mythology are the oldest inhabitants of central Italy, connected in legendary history with Aeneas, Latinus and Evander.

Re: Japanese have been producing wood for 700 years without cutting down trees

#163

Post by Archelaos »

fnordpiglet wrote: post #148
relaxing wrote: post #113

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just because the US happened to be founded in the Age of Enlightenment that doesn't magically grant us heritage back to antiquity. And the argument isn't about the size of cities or political organization. But for reference, Philadelphia in 1790 had population 28k. That's on par with Paris around year 0 in the Roman era, or roughly year 1100 as the city recovered in the middle ages.

I always found these statements interesting. Heritage follows a cultural lineage that doesn’t attach necessarily to political institutions. Much of Europe’s political structure post dates the US. The heritage of the US is extraordinarily rich and inherits the heritage of the entire planet as cultures have immigrated and integrated. We have very clear direct heritages to England, Ireland, Italy, Germany, France, China…

> Much of Europe’s political structure post dates the US.

I do not think that one can make such a claim objectively. There is a whole lot of prejudice hidden behind the word "much". Political structure simply cannot be quantified. There are elements that were earlier in the US. There are elements that were earlier in Europe. Some elements were earlier in Europe, but given up inbetween and readopted later. Some elements are unique to the US, some to Europe. Some elements have changed so much during their history that you may either claim that they represent a very old system or a very new one. (For the latter: Is present day Vatican the oldest political institution in Europe, because it can trace its origins to Antiquity, or is it one of the youngest, because it was formed with the help of Mussolini?) -- One needs to tell stories of origin, not impose inappropriate metrics.

Re: Japanese have been producing wood for 700 years without cutting down trees

#164

Post by tremon »

thechao wrote: post #161
thechao wrote: post #119

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The largest city in the "middle ages" was in the US. Europeans trot that "no history" story out because saying "... and then Europeans engaged in the largest genocide in human history" doesn't feel as good, I guess? There was definitely an interruption and a regime change — Europe's got a lot more of those a lot more recently than the US — but the history is there, if you care to look.

EDIT: I can’t modify this to narrow the assertion to “… the US had a city (Cahokia) larger than its European contemporaries…” Also, all of the Americas gets historical short shrift from the old world: my point still stands: there was a concerted effort 500 years ago to exterminate the natives, and the results of that plan continues to this day when people say “X doesn’t have any history”.

So, on one hand you acknowledge the concerted effort to exterminate the natives, and on the other hand you appear more than ready to ascribe the credit for the largest city on that soil to the USA? Isn't that just a little bit callous?

Re: Japanese have been producing wood for 700 years without cutting down trees

#165

Post by kridsdale2 »

cschmidt wrote: post #141
hedgehog wrote: post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wikipedia has a list (of course), it's pretty interesting to read: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_oldest_companies

The continuity of family companies in Japan also comes from the practice of adult adoption, when the family line doesn't have a suitable successor. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanese_adult_adoption

I read that this legal technique has also been used in Japan as a proxy for Gay Marriage.

Re: Japanese have been producing wood for 700 years without cutting down trees

#166

Post by leipert »

fnordpiglet wrote: post #148
relaxing wrote: post #113

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just because the US happened to be founded in the Age of Enlightenment that doesn't magically grant us heritage back to antiquity. And the argument isn't about the size of cities or political organization. But for reference, Philadelphia in 1790 had population 28k. That's on par with Paris around year 0 in the Roman era, or roughly year 1100 as the city recovered in the middle ages.

I always found these statements interesting. Heritage follows a cultural lineage that doesn’t attach necessarily to political institutions. Much of Europe’s political structure post dates the US. The heritage of the US is extraordinarily rich and inherits the heritage of the entire planet as cultures have immigrated and integrated. We have very clear direct heritages to England, Ireland, Italy, Germany, France, China…

As a European it just seems weird that sometimes the heritage that is a few generations old is pulled out of thin air in order to give some meaning in the modern day. If your family migrated to the US in the 1800s, you ain’t German, Irish or French no more. Yes, we have the same heritage, but the fork happened so long ago, that you cannot relate to the experience of something that happened later in Europe or elsewhere. Similarly how I cannot go to some German-heritage community in the US and relate to everything they lived through.

Re: Japanese have been producing wood for 700 years without cutting down trees

#168

Post by hfbff »

eloff wrote: post #103
kriro wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's quite a few in Germany. The most famous one is probably Merck (1668). There's a couple of really old banks (Berenberg Bank in Hamburg, 1590) and the industry with the most old companies is probably the glas industry. There's a couple of companies from the 15xx and 16xx. If you're into hiking, you probably heard about Meindl shoes (1683). There's also a lot of breweries, especially small ones in Frankonia. And…

A German friend phrased it this way for Americans: We have beers older than your country. The depth of history and culture in Europe never ceased to amaze me while I was travelling there, especially in Greece and Italy. I grew up on the prairies in Canada, there was pretty much nothing there 120 years ago.

I don't know about your corner in Canada, but that "there was nothing here 150 years ago" is a dangerous lie told by people in many parts of the USA and Canada that minimized the indigenous people and occupied their land.

Your part of Canada might truly be somewhere with no indigenous presence

Re: Japanese have been producing wood for 700 years without cutting down trees

#169

Post by CMCDragonkai »

eloff wrote: post #103
kriro wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's quite a few in Germany. The most famous one is probably Merck (1668). There's a couple of really old banks (Berenberg Bank in Hamburg, 1590) and the industry with the most old companies is probably the glas industry. There's a couple of companies from the 15xx and 16xx. If you're into hiking, you probably heard about Meindl shoes (1683). There's also a lot of breweries, especially small ones in Frankonia. And…

A German friend phrased it this way for Americans: We have beers older than your country. The depth of history and culture in Europe never ceased to amaze me while I was travelling there, especially in Greece and Italy. I grew up on the prairies in Canada, there was pretty much nothing there 120 years ago.

In that sense there's always a bigger fish. My Chinese last name is older than the idea of Germany.

Re: Japanese have been producing wood for 700 years without cutting down trees

#170

Post by viciousvoxel »

bluGill wrote: post #111
duped wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thanks for the googling for rabbit holes. The joinery in traditional Japanese construction is remarkably impressive in its craftsmanship. I've heard it was born from a combination of expensive and poor quality iron for nails (although the same could be said in European construction - hence the phrase, "dead as a door nail") and the desire to be able to relocate Shinto shrines without damage (which required joints tha…

Iron was expensive in Europe, before mass production a nail had to be made individually by hand which took a long time. Which is why until around 200 years ago nails were used only when nothing else would do.

I imagine it would have been even more expensive and unobtainable in Japan -- they historically had no source of quality iron and most was laboriously refined from iron sands and was of poor quality. This is also what necessitated the development of advanced metallurgical techniques such as repeated folding and blending of different steels to compensate.
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